The meaning of IT IS FINISHED!
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I have heard this teaching =IT is Finished by wommack so many times that I had to give God praise and thankgiving more than ever before.I must admit while discussing the finished work of the cross and death of Jesus and saying it is finished , that Sister FAITH was correct more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 12/26/2011 08:14:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Evangelist, are you saying that John was giving only a man's view?
Are you seriously saying that Jesus Christ, MY Lord and Saviour was giving merely a man's view????
Are you actually saying that Andrew Wommack, a mere man, is the one telling God's view and that that Jesus is a liar??????
What I am saying is that man is giving a man made view and interpretation based on the natural carnal judgement and natural understandings!
It is like when the disciple said to Jesus some one is dieing and Jesus took His time and just said he is just sleeping but the disciple view was death non existance death!
Jesus look at the spiritual while men was seeing the external carnality of the situation, just as you are doing here!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 12/27/2011 16:52:16
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I quoted the Bible. No explanation required. John's own words and Christ's own words.
I asked you before about spiritual versus carnal. You admitted before that it was a carnal mind that thinks adultery is OK. Therefore it is not a spiritual mind that concludes what you have concluded on these passages.
A spiritual mind does not look at what John wrote and come up with something different from what was written.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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John 15:1-20
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
17These things I command you, that ye love one another.
18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
You always avoid the little things that make all the difference.
There is no room for the spirit of rebellion in Christ's Church. There is no lone-sheep Christianity.
Those that seek to go it alone will be devoured.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 12/27/2011 18:15:37
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1 John 1:1-10
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Sometimes the Bible can be hard to understand. Hyperbole was a common part of speech that was used to make a point. Elsewhere it says that born again believers cannot sin. But that passage must also be read in light of this chapter. One does not nullify the other.
And neither passage was written to unbelievers, but only to born again believers who had already come to Christ.
The Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 shows also that your interpretation is faulty because not all who receive the word with joy are saved. The fruit is what separates us. Those that allow God's WORD to transform them, are the ones who will be saved.
Jesus made us righteous, but to remain righteous and In Him, we must grow. There is none of this nonsense of His taking our place while we live in the mire. He came to make us into something more. God is the potter, we are the clay. Let Him shape you into what you were meant to be.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
i listened to that debate evan. do you agree with what the protestant said? basically that there is no freewill? that it is finished really means god has put chains back on us? that is really what he means by grace. catholics understand grace not as god forcing but god truly freeing us. that is the real problem.. for those who focus on extreme grace cannot loose salvation because they have no free will any more.. and those, like the catholic understand that the only thing that can separate us from god is our own god given free will. no amount of hiding behind an innacurate understanding of "it is finished" will change that unless you mean that "it is finished" refers to the removal of free will.
so which is it. did god take away your freewill or did he really free you?
Did you listen to all 8 parts on justification?
Because the conclusion came out to show it is God grace plus your added extra works of merits to help Jesus do what He can't complete without some catholic external rituals and external carnal merits of works.
Father Pacwa talked about these works from what Catholic must do which is not biblical but envented by your catholic magistrium which is very interesting why on that bases we can't know your doctrines as such because it is only based on your church teachings alone and end up call it a catholic mystery!
Even the priest mention a catholic has no asurrance they are saved only after death which is another gospel, andc tried to claim Paul never knew niether even thougfh he wrote most of the NT and stands on grace and the security of our faith!
You need to listen to what your scholar priest has said in the open as a representing your church doctrines and catholic belief system!
I heard the debate at least 30 times from beginning to end and I am still listening to it taking alot of note of good and errors, from both side of many religious people hate walls!
one love
sorry evan but the amount of times that you misconstrue and loop the very simple things we say here doesn't leave me much room in trusting what you think someone else said.
what i did get was that his opponent held to a calvanistic, osas approach which is not biblical in the least. do you believe you have free will or not? do you believe god saved you just to make you a puppet or not? those are the real questions evan. and you must be consistent with them. i asked you this above but as usual you don't like answering the real questions you try to sidestep them.. (yes i have always notice that about you)
anyway it has always been gods grace; with our response... and our response is faith. not dead faith but faith that isn't dead. biblically that means that faith, in order to be real faith has to have works (but not the works of the law). and that is how we respond to gods free gift of grace. it's not buying or earning but accepting and trusting. did you accept god? (accepting is a work YOU did. God didnt accept for you) did you say yes? (saying yes is a work apart from grace) did you go forward at an altar call? (going forward is a work apart from grace) however you believe you got saved, i can bet you DID something and didn't just do nothing. if you didn't respond to grace then you never experienced it.. and if you didn't experience grace then all your baloney here is just mere philosophy. in reality i think what you hate about religion is how you are religious. what you hate about churchy is your type of churchy. what you hate about works are the works you keep trying to force everyone else to participate in. and what you hate about freedom is the fact that even with our rules, we are still more happy and free than you.. and we are free of you.
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
I quoted the Bible. No explanation required. John's own words and Christ's own words.
I asked you before about spiritual versus carnal. You admitted before that it was a carnal mind that thinks adultery is OK. Therefore it is not a spiritual mind that concludes what you have concluded on these passages.
A spiritual mind does not look at what John wrote and come up with something different from what was written.
The spiritual mind is the mind of Christ so how would that come up with anything different and external?
The spiritual mind thinks and is the exact mind of Christ and can only do what He does and would do!
Ro:8:5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Ro:8:6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Ro:8:7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 12/28/2011 07:24:34
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The Spiritual mind is not the exact same mind as Christ, but is our own mind thinking as Christ would have us think.
We don't have two minds, one spiritual and one carnal. We must allow our minds to be conformed to Christ, or it will remain carnal.
Let us be very clear on what Paul is saying. To be carnally minded is to be damned to HELL. So we do not have that option unless we wish to go to Hell.
To be spiritually minded is to follow Christ, to walk in our flesh and blood bodies after the Spirit, to do what is right with Christ.
We do not want our bodies to have emnity against God. If our body goes to Hell, our spirit goes with it.
Paul is not telling us that our spirits are pure while our bodies are defiled. He is saying that we must keep our bodies and minds pure also. And while this passage as quoted does not say it, the NT makes it clear that this is something made possible by Christ, not our own doing.
Grace is the key. We are saved by GRACE. Grace is what allows us to do good. Without Grace, we could not do any good.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Fourth Member
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It is finished is referring to the final cup of the Passover which Jesus never finished in the upper room but when he received wine vinegar on the cross, he said, it is finished, referring to the Passover, thus linking his death with the Passover meal he started in the upper room but never finished.
When a Protestant rejects Tradition & refuses to be open to understanding they miss out on what is taking place in the scriptures & are left with only to their own uninformed devices.
The Passover had 4 cups but Jesus left the upper room before he drank the 4th cup of consummation. Later in the garden Jesus even said "let this cup pass from me"
But on the cross he drank & said it (the Passover) is finished.
See everything fits if your Catholic.
Heb 10:13 says we have an altar from which to eat.
Jesus said "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
Paul is passing on this Tradition Jesus commanded us to do in 1 Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you.
Jesus links his sacrifice on the cross with the Passover he started in the upper room but never finished by finishing the Passover meal on the cross.
Unlike a goat Jesus sacrifice never ends & fits & makes sense that Heb 8 says that Jesus is a high priest in heaven & it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer.
Heb 10:13
[10] We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat.
1 Cor 11:23-25
[23] For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,
[24] and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
[25] In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
Heb 8
[1] Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
[2] a minister in the sanctuary and the true tent which is set up not by man but by the Lord.
[3] For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer.
Through bigotry prejudices false assumptions & false premises Protestants are protesting a catholic church made up by Protestantism that does not actually exist.
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Spiritual mind is not the exact same mind as Christ, but is our own mind thinking as Christ would have us think.
We don't have two minds, one spiritual and one carnal. We must allow our minds to be conformed to Christ, or it will remain carnal.
Let us be very clear on what Paul is saying. To be carnally minded is to be damned to HELL. So we do not have that option unless we wish to go to Hell.
To be spiritually minded is to follow Christ, to walk in our flesh and blood bodies after the Spirit, to do what is right with Christ.
We do not want our bodies to have emnity against God. If our body goes to Hell, our spirit goes with it.
Paul is not telling us that our spirits are pure while our bodies are defiled. He is saying that we must keep our bodies and minds pure also. And while this passage as quoted does not say it, the NT makes it clear that this is something made possible by Christ, not our own doing.
Grace is the key. We are saved by GRACE. Grace is what allows us to do good. Without Grace, we could not do any good.
so you don't believe your born again spirit has thee mind of Christ?
One love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 12/30/2011 06:44:00
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I believe what the Bible says and the Bible says that I get born again. It says nothing about getting the literal actual mind of Christ.
In a sense, I do have the mind of Christ in that I seek to be conformed to Christ and therefore be Christ-like.
I can tell if I have the mind of Christ why seeing what I do. If I sin, then I am not completely conformed to Christ yet.
Is your mind completely renewed? Or does it still have sinful thoughts?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Fourth Member
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PM
Member since 01/26/2008
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Spiritual mind is not the exact same mind as Christ, but is our own mind thinking as Christ would have us think.
We don't have two minds, one spiritual and one carnal. We must allow our minds to be conformed to Christ, or it will remain carnal.
Let us be very clear on what Paul is saying. To be carnally minded is to be damned to HELL. So we do not have that option unless we wish to go to Hell.
To be spiritually minded is to follow Christ, to walk in our flesh and blood bodies after the Spirit, to do what is right with Christ.
We do not want our bodies to have emnity against God. If our body goes to Hell, our spirit goes with it.
Paul is not telling us that our spirits are pure while our bodies are defiled. He is saying that we must keep our bodies and minds pure also. And while this passage as quoted does not say it, the NT makes it clear that this is something made possible by Christ, not our own doing.
Grace is the key. We are saved by GRACE. Grace is what allows us to do good. Without Grace, we could not do any good.
so you don't believe your born again spirit has thee mind of Christ?
One love
Here is the stereotyping & projecting again.
Stop trying to make the Catholic Church fit into your Protestantism system.
Catholic teachings fit perfectly with all other Catholic teachings.
Protestantism teachings & Catholic do not fit together.
Through bigotry prejudices false assumptions & false premises Protestants are protesting a catholic church made up by Protestantism that does not actually exist.
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Except for the ones they inherited from the mother Church.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Spiritual mind is not the exact same mind as Christ, but is our own mind thinking as Christ would have us think.
We don't have two minds, one spiritual and one carnal. We must allow our minds to be conformed to Christ, or it will remain carnal.
Let us be very clear on what Paul is saying. To be carnally minded is to be damned to HELL. So we do not have that option unless we wish to go to Hell.
To be spiritually minded is to follow Christ, to walk in our flesh and blood bodies after the Spirit, to do what is right with Christ.
We do not want our bodies to have emnity against God. If our body goes to Hell, our spirit goes with it.
Paul is not telling us that our spirits are pure while our bodies are defiled. He is saying that we must keep our bodies and minds pure also. And while this passage as quoted does not say it, the NT makes it clear that this is something made possible by Christ, not our own doing.
Grace is the key. We are saved by GRACE. Grace is what allows us to do good. Without Grace, we could not do any good.
if this was true then we all are going to hell!
One love
Edited by evangelist on 12/31/2011 02:49:06
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Why would it mean that? Do you not have faith in Christ's ability to transform us into something more than our old defiled selves?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Fourth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/26/2008
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Spiritual mind is not the exact same mind as Christ, but is our own mind thinking as Christ would have us think.
We don't have two minds, one spiritual and one carnal. We must allow our minds to be conformed to Christ, or it will remain carnal.
Let us be very clear on what Paul is saying. To be carnally minded is to be damned to HELL. So we do not have that option unless we wish to go to Hell.
To be spiritually minded is to follow Christ, to walk in our flesh and blood bodies after the Spirit, to do what is right with Christ.
We do not want our bodies to have emnity against God. If our body goes to Hell, our spirit goes with it.
Paul is not telling us that our spirits are pure while our bodies are defiled. He is saying that we must keep our bodies and minds pure also. And while this passage as quoted does not say it, the NT makes it clear that this is something made possible by Christ, not our own doing.
Grace is the key. We are saved by GRACE. Grace is what allows us to do good. Without Grace, we could not do any good.
if this was true then we all are going to hell!
One love
Stop trying to make the Catholic Church fit into your Protestantism system.
Through bigotry prejudices false assumptions & false premises Protestants are protesting a catholic church made up by Protestantism that does not actually exist.
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