spirit ,soul, and body!
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I have taught on this truth and teaching so many times and I find this is not taught in many churches and would like to get others views on this important topic!I give a very good example and teaching example with curtains explaning about our born again spirits , and how more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Originally posted by evangelist
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
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Originally posted by evangelist
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Ephesians states that there is ONE Baptism. Do not bother me with separate types of baptisms. For a Christian, no other kind matters.
I gzess that is why you don't want to deal with the different kind of baptism because you night have to deal with the blood baptsm of Jesus which will debunk your philosophy and catholic doctrine at large!
one love
According to the Bible, the other kinds of baptism are John the Baptist's baptism which Christians no longer do. And the Mikvey for ritual cleansing performed by the Jews as often as necessary - also not done by Christians.
Only Martyrs are baptized by blood, so unless you are killed for your faith, you don't have that option.
Jesus died for us and so was Himself baptized by blood. But for us to benefit from that blood, we need to be baptized by Christian baptism. This is done by water and spirit during the traditional Christian water baptism.
Paul said that there is ONE Baptism. That is all there is.
John the Baptist indicated that where he baptized by water alone, Jesus would baptize with the Spirit - this Jesus does when we are baptized with water - there is NO SEPARATE BAPTISM.
If Christians had to be baptized more than once by more than one means - Paul would have mentioned this. He never does. Jesus would have mentioned this, HE never did. The only ones who have said this were born in the 20th century, many times removed from the Apostolic age.
If jesus baptized by the Holy Ghost and you are saying we can only get that only after water baptism then that would contradict the bible, because there can't be not acception to the rule or tradition of the law of faith.
So tell me how this was done biblically and in the right out or not as you claim?
God can make an exception. You don't get to dictate what God can or cannot do. However, the exception is only minor - we can receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit many times in our lives and this is not baptism by the Holy Spirit, merely being filled. Cornelius and his household were not baptized when the Holy Spirit came down - Peter indicates that they should be baptized, not that they were already, and they were baptized immediately following the sign from God that they could.
Like it or lump it, but the Bible states in Acts 8 that NO ONE received the Holy Spirit unless they had ALSO been baptized in the Name of the Trinity, and Acts 19 affirmed that belief and faith alone did not count as baptism.
IF you need a concession from me to remove the apparent contradiction you want to make - the solution is simple - I will accept that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit does come solely in connection with water baptism but will allow that God can time it in the surrounding time frame - a few minutes before or after - God knows if someone will be baptized or not. Cornelious was seeking baptism, so whether the spirit arrived a minute before, during or a minute after does not violate what the scriptures say about this.
However, what I will not accept is any assertion that Acts 8 or Acts 19 are nullified by the events in Acts 10 - note that Acts 8 occurred prior to this event, and Acts 19 occurred after, so there was no change in the rules as you keep trying to assert. They both confirm that the Holy Spirit does not dwell in anyone unless they are also baptized in the Name of the Trinity.
Also can the Holy spirit enter into a sinner not saved and not forgiven of all their sins?
one love
Of course He can. This is part of the process of us getting saved and having our sins forgiven. Did you think that God sent a sweeper angel to clean us up first?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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I still need to answer this one properly, but I am running out of time this morning. I will say that your method is the way that makes it hard to know. You go by a feeling.
The Bible does not say that we are baptized by our belief in Christ. It says we must believe AND be baptized.
The Parable of the sower shows that not all who get that warm fuzzy feeling of joy in "belief" are saved. God knows that many will fall away because they did not have fertile soil. Baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. It is our response of YES to God.
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Originally posted by evangelist
quote Faith _at _large:
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Almost. We were saved at Baptism, and are being saved as we walk with Christ, and we will be saved as we seek to be reconciled to Him should we stumble.
Quote Evangelist:
with your explanation you can never know when you are saved, and second you are making a statement only at your baptism you are perfect until the next time you stumble, so for someone whó just got water baptized according to you , would be the best thing or a great awesome favor to that new convert is to kill them as soon as they come out the water so they can be a perfect saved dead person, and don't have to have the yoke and stress of hoping and wishing that they might get reconciled to Christ!
Ro:5:8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Ro:5:9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Ro:5:10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Note this gospel truth above is saying it is nothing we do , or seek, try, earn, or a performance of any kind good or bad but it is alone imputted or given to us as a free gift by Jesus pefect sinless life!
Ro:5:11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Note also paul is saying there no need for a seeking or seek , or try to get , niether any process we have to do or wait or get in the by and bye! 
The key is to know who we are in Christ and live accordingly.
Quote Evangelist:
YES! BINGO AMEN FAITH!
It is like us being a police man and have all the authority and rights as a police which you are , and should act like who you are a police man and not a coward and a fool, and afraid.
But even if you have those thing, and you are still a officail police man, by law, just your mind should learn to live and act as a police man.
I can say the same analogy as a soldier in the army, and as soon as you swear in to be in the army you are a soldier at that moment!
But if you are sent to war and you don't live and do what you are trained to do , you will died a soldier even sooner than you think, and died not as a non soldier.
The dumm thing about a stupid or a soildier not living like he should might die without honor to his country and die as a non ranked soldier!
This is a good example why you need to stop claiming your non faith and lack of knowledge of being stil a sinner!
So often we are told to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. You seem to think that we can do both at the same time. We cannot. We walk after the spirit OR the flesh with the whole of our being - body, mind and spirit.
Those who walk after the flesh seek to fullfill the lusts of the flesh. Those who walk after the spirit deny the lusts of the flesh. This means that they actually refrain from committing sins with their body.
We are told constantly in the Bible to avoid sin and seek after Christ. Jesus is the Way - follow HIM, not the world. Jesus is the Truth, listen to HIM, not the world. Jesus is the Life, abide in Him and refuse to be caught up in the world.
YES! we should act like a honorable soldier, specially when you are still walking in your uniform, but you are who you are as long as you are in that uniform, unless you renounce your duty and give up your uniform and become an ordinary person again.
one love
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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It's inconsistant with Sacred Scripture to believe that we are allowed to receive the Body of Christ and to house the indwelling Holy Spirit while we resent Their authority and disobey Their Commandments.
And it's also dangerous to bury one's mind in an illusion and not allow either the mind or the soul to know what sin is or what effect sin has on a soul.
The purpose of the Holy Spirit indwelling humanity is for the purification of our mind, body and soul. His instruction develops purity in us, while our bodies exist here, on Earth.
Souls will eventually regain bodies.
Some sins are mortal, they severe our connection with the Trinity.
Wallering in the lesser sins isn't healthy for a soul neither.
No different than filling the human body with junk food, drugs, booze, cigarettes. Or filling the mind with pornography, anti-christian beliefs, etc.
We don't do that to our bodies, we should not do that to our souls. This neglect wounds both our souls and our connection to God.
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
"Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord."
Christ instituted Baptism, Reconciliation, Eucharist and Confirmation in the Holy Spirit in His Church to assist His flock in becoming pure and holy. Undefiled.
Christ and the Holy Spirit do no "zap us" with holiness which overpowers our humanity or our will.
Purity and holiness must be willed, chosen. Both require humility, obedience and consistency.
Edited by bwellmysoul on 06/15/2012 12:10:23
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote Faith _at _large:
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Almost. We were saved at Baptism, and are being saved as we walk with Christ, and we will be saved as we seek to be reconciled to Him should we stumble.
Quote Evangelist:
with your explanation you can never know when you are saved, and second you are making a statement only at your baptism you are perfect until the next time you stumble, so for someone whó just got water baptized according to you , would be the best thing or a great awesome favor to that new convert is to kill them as soon as they come out the water so they can be a perfect saved dead person, and don't have to have the yoke and stress of hoping and wishing that they might get reconciled to Christ!
If the Holy Spirit had not come to dwell in the person, I might agree that killing him or her at the moment of baptism might be the best thing, but the Holy Spirit does come and your solution to my doctrine only betrays a rather astounding lack of faith in Christ.
We are not judged until after we die. So while we may stumble, we have opportunity to repent and return to Jesus as long as we live.
Baptism washes away our past sins and we are made perfect. The Bible does not say that we are guaranteed to remain perfect. Some do, but many falter - that is why we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to help us. The more we cooperate with the HS, and the easier it becomes. There really is a renewing of our mind, heart and spirit.
2 Corinthians 4:15-18 15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
What is your inward man? Not your body, but your spirit. And this is being renewed day by day - not instantly, once.
Ephesians 4:22-24 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
If you read the broader passage, this is not an instant one time thing - Paul is telling us that in order to put on our new man, we have to let go of our old man - this means stopping our former actions - Paul actually tells people that if they stole before to stop stealing, and to stop lying and doing other things that give in to the Devil - so this is not about our spirits being perfect while our bodies continue as they were - Paul tells us to stop our old ways and take on new and better ways.
Read all of Colossians 3. Paul again speaks of the deeds of our old man and tells us to stop them and do deeds befitting the new man we are to put on. No done deal here. He does not speak of secret doings of our spirit apart from our body, but of the actions of our mind and body. And at the end of that chapter, note this warning:
Colossians 3:24-25 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
God is not a respector of persons. If we do wrong, we shall suffer the same fate as any other. Earlier in this chapter we are "hid in Christ", but John 15 shows how we remain that way and what may cause us to be cut off.
Jesus did not redeem us so that we could use Him as an excuse to continue in sin. God will not be mocked.
Ro:5:8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Ro:5:9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Ro:5:10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Note this gospel truth above is saying it is nothing we do , or seek, try, earn, or a performance of any kind good or bad but it is alone imputted or given to us as a free gift by Jesus pefect sinless life!
True. What Jesus did for us we did not deserve and we cannot repay. Nor does He ever ask us to. Thanks be to God for that. But you cannot go playing the Bible like a deck of cards. Just because Jesus reconciled us to the Father and gave us the means to continue in that Grace - does not mean that our own actions against the Father do not count against us once we have been redeemed.
As Paul warned in Colossians 3, God is not a respector of persons. If we live like a degenerate sinner, we will be treated like one.
There are many places in the Bible where we are told that there are actions that if we do or refuse to do as the case may be, we will be no better off than the unbeliever. That means that by our actions, we accept or reject Jesus.
Ro:5:11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Note also paul is saying there no need for a seeking or seek , or try to get , niether any process we have to do or wait or get in the by and bye!
We did receive it. But it doesn't say that we can't lose it. Even you admitted that if we reject Jesus we lose our salvation. I say that we reject Jesus any time we choose sin over Him.
The key is to know who we are in Christ and live accordingly.
Amen. Those who truly belong to Christ will not seek to sin, and if they do, they will repent of it straight away. Paul even said that we will even be brought to repentance by God Himself, and that this is a good thing. Why do you keep thinking that God's actions to help Christians should be ignored and rejected?
Quote Evangelist:
YES! BINGO AMEN FAITH!
It is like us being a police man and have all the authority and rights as a police which you are , and should act like who you are a police man and not a coward and a fool, and afraid.
But even if you have those thing, and you are still a officail police man, by law, just your mind should learn to live and act as a police man.
Amen. And if a policeman violates the law he was ordained to uphold, he will face a worse fate than the non-policeman who did the same thing. To whom much is given, much more is expected. The Bible says this very clearly. Nice analogy even if you did not bring it to its full conclusion.
I can say the same analogy as a soldier in the army, and as soon as you swear in to be in the army you are a soldier at that moment!
But if you are sent to war and you don't live and do what you are trained to do , you will died a soldier even sooner than you think, and died not as a non soldier.
If you just did something stupid, yes, you will die a soldier. But if you did a serious crime that violates your contract, you would not die as a soldier but as a traitor and would be stripped of all benefits.
The dumm thing about a stupid or a soildier not living like he should might die without honor to his country and die as a non ranked soldier!
Perhaps. One does not generally get demoted for making a mistake. But if he refused orders and did actions that caused significant damage to his country's efforts, he would be demoted or branded a traitor and stripped of everything.
This is a good example why you need to stop claiming your non faith and lack of knowledge of being stil a sinner!
Oh, Evangelist, I never once claimed non-faith or lack of knowledge. I am not an unrepentant sinner as often spoken of in the Bible. Rather I am who Christ came to save. Christ did not come to save the righteous, He came to save sinners like me and you.
So often we are told to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. You seem to think that we can do both at the same time. We cannot. We walk after the spirit OR the flesh with the whole of our being - body, mind and spirit.
Those who walk after the flesh seek to fullfill the lusts of the flesh. Those who walk after the spirit deny the lusts of the flesh. This means that they actually refrain from committing sins with their body.
We are told constantly in the Bible to avoid sin and seek after Christ. Jesus is the Way - follow HIM, not the world. Jesus is the Truth, listen to HIM, not the world. Jesus is the Life, abide in Him and refuse to be caught up in the world.
YES! we should act like a honorable soldier, specially when you are still walking in your uniform, but you are who you are as long as you are in that uniform, unless you renounce your duty and give up your uniform and become an ordinary person again.
one love
Of course we should. And if we violate the rules, we can be stripped of all that too.
The private who leaked all that sensitive information to Wikileaks should have left the army and been better off, instead he will likely go to jail and will be lucky if he is not shot as a traitor. In any case, he will likely be dishonorably discharged - this means he would be stripped of all benefits to having been a soldier. For him, it would be better if he had never joined the army.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
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Originally posted by evangelist
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
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Originally posted by evangelist
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Ephesians states that there is ONE Baptism. Do not bother me with separate types of baptisms. For a Christian, no other kind matters.
I gzess that is why you don't want to deal with the different kind of baptism because you night have to deal with the blood baptsm of Jesus which will debunk your philosophy and catholic doctrine at large!
one love
According to the Bible, the other kinds of baptism are John the Baptist's baptism which Christians no longer do. And the Mikvey for ritual cleansing performed by the Jews as often as necessary - also not done by Christians.
Only Martyrs are baptized by blood, so unless you are killed for your faith, you don't have that option.
Jesus died for us and so was Himself baptized by blood. But for us to benefit from that blood, we need to be baptized by Christian baptism. This is done by water and spirit during the traditional Christian water baptism.
Paul said that there is ONE Baptism. That is all there is.
John the Baptist indicated that where he baptized by water alone, Jesus would baptize with the Spirit - this Jesus does when we are baptized with water - there is NO SEPARATE BAPTISM.
If Christians had to be baptized more than once by more than one means - Paul would have mentioned this. He never does. Jesus would have mentioned this, HE never did. The only ones who have said this were born in the 20th century, many times removed from the Apostolic age.
If jesus baptized by the Holy Ghost and you are saying we can only get that only after water baptism then that would contradict the bible, because there can't be not acception to the rule or tradition of the law of faith.
So tell me how this was done biblically and in the right out or not as you claim?
God can make an exception. You don't get to dictate what God can or cannot do. However, the exception is only minor - we can receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit many times in our lives and this is not baptism by the Holy Spirit, merely being filled. Cornelius and his household were not baptized when the Holy Spirit came down - Peter indicates that they should be baptized, not that they were already, and they were baptized immediately following the sign from God that they could.
Like it or lump it, but the Bible states in Acts 8 that NO ONE received the Holy Spirit unless they had ALSO been baptized in the Name of the Trinity, and Acts 19 affirmed that belief and faith alone did not count as baptism.
IF you need a concession from me to remove the apparent contradiction you want to make - the solution is simple - I will accept that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit does come solely in connection with water baptism but will allow that God can time it in the surrounding time frame - a few minutes before or after - God knows if someone will be baptized or not. Cornelious was seeking baptism, so whether the spirit arrived a minute before, during or a minute after does not violate what the scriptures say about this.
However, what I will not accept is any assertion that Acts 8 or Acts 19 are nullified by the events in Acts 10 - note that Acts 8 occurred prior to this event, and Acts 19 occurred after, so there was no change in the rules as you keep trying to assert. They both confirm that the Holy Spirit does not dwell in anyone unless they are also baptized in the Name of the Trinity.
Also can the Holy spirit enter into a sinner not saved and not forgiven of all their sins?
one love
Of course He can. This is part of the process of us getting saved and having our sins forgiven. Did you think that God sent a sweeper angel to clean us up first?
Yes! God can do anything but can God lie and can God go against His laws and principles?
Also yes God sent more than an angel to sweep us clean as such, He sent His word which sinner first hear with the message of love and mercy which is the good gospel ,that it would be stupid to reject!
Also no way can the Holy Spirit dwell in a sinner!
That is why it is called Holy not half Holy Spirit!
That is why where in the bible saying people were filled with the Holy Spirit is obviously saved!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 06/16/2012 06:31:02
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I never suggested that God lied or went against his own principles.
Where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit cannot come into a sinner. He did before. People prophecy when they are filled with the Holy Spirit, even if HE does not remain in them. This happened during the trial of Jesus to one who condemned Him to death on the cross. That man was not a Christian. Are you saying that all or even any of the members of the Sanhedrin were righteous?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Evangelist. Look at what I have been writing. Look at the verses I choose in evidence. I am not going against the Bible. But you are denying much of what was written because you are not able to put your trust where it belongs.
Martin Luther felt that because he still felt temptation to sin then either he was not saved or Jesus must have done something other than what the Church taught - he figured that if he modified the scriptures he could make it so that he was saved by faith no matter what and then his temptations would no longer be a problem and he did not have to try anymore.
Luther thought that was a great solution, but the problem was that the reason he had to produce this new doctrine was that previously he was putting everything on himself. He figured if he wasn't already perfect in his own actions, then something was wrong. Luther did not trust that Jesus would help him to become what God wanted.
Devout Catholics don't go around fretting about sin. Most don't even give it a second thought. We trust that God is at work in us. We know that if we are tempted, our conscience will remind us if it is sinful, and if we stumble, Jesus gave us the means to return from this transgression. No problem. We trust. Where is your trust?
You act like we are untouchable to God before we are born again, and even after we are born again, keeps His distance and only tentatively touches our spirit. Think about it. If your body is still sinning, then it is still just as defiled as before you were born again. You say that your spirit became perfect, but your body not - well, then how could the Holy Spirit come to dwell in you? The Holy Spirit does not dwell inside your spirit. It is your flesh and blood body that the Holy Spirit dwells in. Your flesh and blood body is a TEMPLE of the Holy Spirit.
So clearly, by your own account, the Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of entering and dwelling in a sinful body. Sure our sins are forgiven - but they were forgiven at baptism - this is what the Bible says Baptism is for - the remission of sins. And the Bible says that the Holy Spirit comes down at that time.
You keep raising Cornelious and his family, but at no time does anyone say that they were already saved, or that they were already baptized by virtue of their faith. No. Peter says that because the Holy Spirit came to them, this is evidece that they could be baptized. Peter did not consider the Holy Spirit to have baptized them.
The Ethiopian Eunuch was not baptized prior to his baptism through water. He saw water and asked to be baptized.
You are trying to make the Bible fit your assumptions. But you can't do that. Jesus Himself became man and walked amoung us. He knew us and knows us. He loves us in spite of ourselves. Trust in that. He loved us even before He died for us. And He died for us even while we were still in our sins. Never forget that.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
I never suggested that God lied or went against his own principles.
Where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit cannot come into a sinner. He did before. People prophecy when they are filled with the Holy Spirit, even if HE does not remain in them. This happened during the trial of Jesus to one who condemned Him to death on the cross. That man was not a Christian. Are you saying that all or even any of the members of the Sanhedrin were righteous?
The Holy Spirit in the OT came upon people but not in them!
Even samson the anointing came upon him not in him, but the good news we have in the in Act and after Acts is the Holy Spirit came in us and that is where and by Him we know all truth!
1Jo:2:25: And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jo:2:26: These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jo:2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Let continue with Romans 6 FAITH!
Romans 6:4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
This verse states our death with Christ as an true fact and our resurrection with Christ as what should be the result of that death. That might lead some to speculate that our death with Christ to sin has already been finished, while our resurrection with Him in context, spiritual resurrection has yet to be accomplished. Yet compare with other scripture will reveal that is not so.
Eph 2:5-6 states our spiritual resurrection with Christ as an accomplished fact that happens at salvation instantly . Col 2:12-13 makes the same claim. In Col 3:1, Paul used the reasoning that if we are risen with Christ, then we should seek those things that are above. Just as surely as all Christians are to seek heavenly things, likewise, all Christians have been raised with Christ.
Our spirits : Mt 26:41 died to sin and are already resurrected with Christ unto newness of life. These things are already realities in our new spirits. Yet to see these facts become realities in our physical lives, we have to first know what happened to us in our spirits at salvation and then believe this good news. To the degree that we think, believe, and act like who we are in our spirits, to that degree we will experience the life of Christ in our flesh.
Amen!
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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You are giving a prepared speech that does not tally with our discussion.
I already said that we are raised up to new life in Christ right away.
We are saved at the moment of our baptism. That is basic Catholic teaching that even the children learn at their earliest lessons.
Where we differ is that you think parts of you are "saved" first, and the rest follows.
That is not supported by the text. Either the whole person is born again or that person is not born again at all.
Now before we proceed to verse 5, do you agree that the context for this verse is Christian baptism which includes water?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
You are giving a prepared speech that does not tally with our discussion.
I already said that we are raised up to new life in Christ right away.
We are saved at the moment of our baptism. That is basic Catholic teaching that even the children learn at their earliest lessons.
Where we differ is that you think parts of you are "saved" first, and the rest follows.
That is not supported by the text. Either the whole person is born again or that person is not born again at all.
Now before we proceed to verse 5, do you agree that the context for this verse is Christian baptism which includes water?
No! This is only a spiritual baptism.
One Lo ve
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Show me from the scriptures that we are baptised more than once as a Christian.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 06/16/2012 17:30:45
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Paul says:
Ephesians 4:4-6 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Paul says One Baptism.
What does John the Baptist say?
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
John the Baptist baptizes only with water, but affirms that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit. One Baptism.
Matthew in Matthew 3:11 and Mark in Mark 1:8 (giving Peter's testimony) and Luke in Luke 3:16 (giving a composite testimony) all agree that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit. One Baptism.
There is no evidence in the scripture that anyone other than John the Baptist baptized with that precursor baptism. That was not Christian baptism, but merely a precusor to the ONE BAPTISM that was coming. When Paul baptized the disciples in Acts 19:1-7, they had only known John's baptism and Paul baptized them properly. One Baptism.
In Acts 19, these disciples did not know any baptism other than John's Baptism. They had not been baptized by the Holy Spirit. They did not even know what the Holy Spirit was, so clearly it had not come to teach them anything. They knew NADA. Paul explained it to them and they were baptized and received the Holy Spirit. Paul does not tell them anything about getting baptized again by any other means. They are now baptized. One Baptism, no need for any other.
ONE Baptism.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus speaks of baptism by saying we must be born of water and spirit. I find it hillarious that some ignorant souls will say that this is not about baptism at all but about being born again. And then in the same breath, utter that Jesus baptizes with the Spirit so that we can be born again. So is it or isn't it?
This passage IS about baptism and includes both water AND spirit - not a shock, look for "water spirit" in a searchable Bible and the two are connected throughout the Bible, both literally and figuratively.
In that same Chapter, John 3:22, Jesus is seen baptizing with His disciples. This is the context.
So John says that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit, and here Jesus is baptizing with His disciples. Baptism with the Holy Spirit. John said that Jesus would do this; however, in John 4, the author adds a note to indicate that Jesus is not personally baptizing, but having His Apostles do the baptizing. He is teaching them how.
One Baptism. There is no mention of Jesus baptizing two different ways, and at no time is any instruction given as to any order for baptism if there is more than one. There is not even any mention of there being more than one.
Paul says one.
Jesus teaches His Apostles to baptize in regions with lots of water.
In Acts, the Apostles show what they learned. When an Ethiopian Eunuch desired to know God, God actually transported Philip to the Eunuch to travel with him and teach him. WOW!!!! How great is that. God actually sent an Apostle to teach this Eunuch who wanted to know God. The Eunuch did not have the New Testament, he only had the OT, and there was no indication that he knew anything about Jesus, yet. But he did want to know God.
Acts 8:35-38 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
This man did not even know who Jesus was, so how could he have been baptized with the spirit before Philip introduced him to Jesus?
And clearly Philip did not mention anything about being baptized in the spirit apart from water, because the Eunuch asks to be baptized when he sees water. And God does not whisk Philip away until after the Eunuch is baptized with water. One Baptism.
There is no mention of any other baptisms, but according to you there must be at least three Christian baptisms.
You said that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit cannot occur until after Jesus baptizes WITH the Holy Spirit - how does that work again? You say that the Holy Spirit cannot touch a sinful human being and yet this is exactly what Jesus uses to baptize sinful human beings, AND, yet even though you think that all our sins are cleansed with this secret advanced baptism, you don't believe that the Holy Spirit can come to dwell in us at that point, and must come back at a later time in an OPTIONAL event that may or may not happen until later.
Can you see why your version of baptisms gets a little confusing?
You say that the sign that we are born again is that we can speak in tongues and heal and do all sorts of things, but these are gifts of the Holy Spirit when He comes to dwell in us.
When Paul baptizes the disciples in Acts 19, that is when they speak in tongues. And this only happens with the laying of on hands by an Apostle.
Even with Cornelious, the Holy Spirit did not come down except in connection with Peter's speech to them. But every other time, it required the laying on of hands.
There no mention of anyone getting secretly baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit in the Bible. At no time did this just spontaneously happen.
The Jailer did not speak in tongues prior to being baptized with water. No one said that he was baptized by Jesus with the spirit before being baptized with water.
In every instance where baptism is mentioned, there is no mention of any other baptisms being part of the routine.
The closest we get in the New Testament is the doctrine of baptisms mentioned in Hebrews 6:2, but this does not indicate what baptisms are included - in the Bible there are several baptisms, but only one Christian baptism.
Every other time, baptism is mentioned as a singular event.
Paul says there is ONE Baptism. And every example of baptism in the Bible involves other people - typically Apostles or presbyters. No one is baptized by Christ alone without any other human in the process.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Show me from the scriptures that we are baptised more than once as a Christian.
There are many verses showing there is many other baptisms but the main one baptism is in the blood of Jesus which washed away all sins , not the water which saved, but the blood of Jesus one time sacrifice:
http://bible.cc/romans/6-4.htm
So now can we go onto verse 5 in Romans 6 sense you can see that Romans 6 is teaching what is all spiritual even our old spirits death and burial?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 06/17/2012 08:09:34
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
No. There are no verses in the Bible that say that there are other Christian baptisms. That page does not say that there is - at least not in the verses chosen.
Not one.
There is only ONE Christian baptism. Not just one that matters and a bunch of dead works added on.
And even if there really were multiple baptisms and only one mattered - guess what? The only one Jesus taught His disciples to do involved WATER. Jesus commanded His Apostles to go forth and baptize all nations in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. So the ONE Baptism that joins us to Jesus in death and resurrection and washes away our sins and enters us into new life IS WATER BAPTISM.
Jesus gave us the example when He was baptized by John. This is WHEN the Holy Spirit comes down. This is WHY Jesus was baptized with water. John the Baptist baptized with water for the REMISSION OF SINS. Jesus did not have any sins to be remitted. That is why John did not want to baptize Jesus but instead be baptized BY Jesus. Jesus insisted.
By being baptized by water first, Jesus opened up water baptism to be connected to HIS Body - Jesus lead the way for water baptism to be effective for Christians.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 06/17/2012 08:15:53
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