Why Does God Allow Suffering?
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I am starting a discussion group for skeptics in one of the virtual worlds I frequent. Our first topic is "Suffering - Why Does God Allow It?"
I'd be interested in your views... I've found that even Christians have very different takes on this subject.
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A miracle greater than any physical healing is the illumination of ones mind.
"Suffering - Why Does God Allow It?" is the wrong question. I makes false assumptions about God. How suffering got here is the question to ask. Suffering was never in God's plans for humanity, but he gave us free will, and that I think would be a fair starting point.
A good resource for the topic is Pope John Paul's encyclical on the mystery of human suffering.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html
God "allows" suffering the same way He allows free will. Suffering for humanity is the consequence of Adam and Eve's Fall. Enter the doctrine of Original Sin.
"...A lot of people assume that healing is just to cure all sickness and God isn't up to it. Or that God would heal everyone he has some petty motive, people or too sinful, or something.. The point of healing is not to end all sickness. The point is the relation between the spiritual and the way the sick person is guided in life... It's easier to mock things rather than try and understand complex subtleties. God is trying to bring together everything in our lives at a point that will give us the optimum chance to know him, to get our lives together and to find ourselves.
This process requires a lot of things. One must be "in the zone" to be healed. What is that? (my own term, not standard theological parlance). Several things have to stack up at once, not just faith, although that is one, but also being in God's timing, and other things.we don't necessarily know all the things that have to stack up. The overall point is that God uses healing like a tool toward a higher purpose, it's not just chart Blanch on healing."
http://www.doxa.ws/other/Miracles7.html
"...The problem can be stated very simply: If God is so good, why is his world so bad? If an all-good, all-wise, all-loving, all-just, and all-powerful God is running the show, why does he seem to be doing such a miserable job of it? Why do bad things happen to good people?
The unbeliever who asks that question is usually feeling resentment toward and rebellion against God, not just lacking evidence for his existence. C. S. Lewis recalls that as an atheist he "did not believe God existed. I was also very angry with him for not existing. I was also angry with him for having created the world."
When you talk to such a person, remember that it is more like talking to a divorcée than to a skeptical scientist. The reason for unbelief is an unfaithful lover, not an inadequate hypothesis. The unbeliever's problem is not just a soft head but a hard heart. And the good apologist knows how to let the heart lead the head as well as vice versa.
There are four parts to the solution to the problem of evil:..."
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm
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Matthew 25.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Point taken...  Though somehow I don't think skeptics will appreciate being given a single Bible reference as an answer! Maybe I underestimate them though.
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quote:
Originally posted by Diana Holberg
I am starting a discussion group for skeptics in one of the virtual worlds I frequent. Our first topic is "Suffering - Why Does God Allow It?"
I'd be interested in your views... I've found that even Christians have very different takes on this subject.
Hello Diana.
God is love and He doesn't want anyone to suffer, Thats why He sent His Son Jesus to die for us, Jesus not only took our sins, But He took our sicknesses as well.
Ps 103: 3, says,
"God forgives ALL our iniquities and heals ALL our diseases".
If you believe God forgives sins, You have to believe God heals our sicknesses as well.
We can't pick and chose what we want to believe.
Isaiah 53: 3, Says Jesus was a man of sorrows, [ The Hebrew meaning for "Sorrows" is, Pain], And He was acquainted with grief, [The Hebrew meaning for Grief, Is sicknesses".
Jesus was a man of sorrows, and aquainted with grief when he took them for us as He was whipped open for us.
V4 says,
"Surely Jesus has borne our sicknesses and carried our pains.
V5 says,
By His stripes we are healed. [The stripes was the whips He took].
v10 says,
"God put Jesus to grief, [Sick], Jesus became sick just He became sin for us.
2 Cor 5: 21 says.
God made Jesus to be sin for us, That we might be made the righteouesness of God.
If we believe that, We must also believe that Jesus was made sick for us.
And just like we receive forgiveness, We should receive healing.
Matt 8: 1--16 is all about Jesus healing physical bodies, And v 17 says,
That it might be fulfiled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet Isaiah [53].
He, [Jesus]took out infirmities and bare our sicknesses.
1 Pet 2: 24 says,
By Jesus's stripes we WERE [PAST TENSE] healed.
So Jesus has taken our sicknesses and all we have to do is, Receive healing by faith.
I teach this message a lot, And people receive emediatley they know the truth.
So, To answear your question "Why does God allow suffering".
He has put everything on a faith basis so anyone can believe and get delivered.
There is all kinds of suffereing in the world, But the same princible applies.
1st Have the knowledge of God's will, [The Bible].
2nd Believe the Bible.
3rd Act on the Biblical truths.
God has given us the authority to change our circumstances, To bind and to lose, To resist the devil and to give us the victory.
There are three main reasons why people don't receive healing,
[1]Lack of knowledge.
[2]Lack of faith.
[3]Sin or disobedience..That will hinder the blessings of God.
WHY DOES GOD ALLOW SUFFERING??
Because He will permit what we permit, If people chose to stay sick, God wont go against their will.
If people chose to be healed, And receive it by faith, God will release His healing power to heal them.
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Sorry God4Me... I don't think anyone chooses to be sick, excepting maybe people with Münchausen syndrome...
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Diana, what kind of suffering are we dealing with? human or animal?
I think that much of human suffering can be understood as a normal result of living in a world where suffering is simply a part of the equation. In that sense it's not such a bad thing, rather it's meant to act as a consequence to activities that have a hazardous potential. You touch fire you get a burn, and so you back away or you risk gettin a more severe burn or even death. In this sense I think most people understand that a person who continues to do such a thing is asking for suffering. For instance a person who drinks and drives get in an accident and dies, is a sad thing but I would bet that most people understand that sooner or later the driver would probably run out of luck and have an accident.
The kind of suffering that is more difficult is when the consequences go beyond the idividual... for instance when that newly wedded couple get hit by the drunk driver. it seems unfair that the innocent suffer for the sins of another and even worse when the drunk ends up surviving.
Beyond this would be the kind of suffering that seems arbitrary, for instance a disease or earthquake... which may bring distruction to the sinner as well as the saint but isn't really a result of anything done by either. This to me seems to be the hardest to take because it seems more chaotic, as if there really isn't anyone in control.
My general thought in all of this is that suffering is part of the equation of creation. I don't think it could exist without this tension; at least exist the way it does. And the big idea behind it all comes down to freewill and choice. It all comes down to this. In a world that was predestined and predetermined without choice I don't really see a need for suffering or if there were it wouldn't really have any meaning. But in a world, where freewill and choice are part of the deal then suffering in all aspects does seem to be essential. It validates our choices and tests our responses.
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No one has specifically mentioned animal suffering... that's an interesting question though.
One question that has come up is that of long-term suffering like with cancer patients or diseases where people slowly deteriorate - where they exist long after any "quality of life" is gone. Similarly, the question of starving children has arisen. I think the suffering of innocents is probably the hardest to grasp. Lacking a mutual understanding of Original Sin, it's really difficult to explain.
I'll be interested in hearing how those with little or no grasp of redemptive suffering cope with these kinds of questions.
Edited by Diana Holberg on 02/20/2012 19:17:03
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When children are starving, that is our test. No child should be going hungry given that God has provided enough for all. Children are going hungry because we are not feeding them.
In Africa, there was famine that got the whole world's attention. But from the get go, that famine was man-made - caused by factions burning each other's crops in a deliberate attempt at genocide. This destroyed also the means of preventing erosion so that the good topsoil was blown or washed away.
These are things that should cause us to think and to act. And they did.
Slow diseases are a grace in some respects. They give someone pause to think and reflect and make their peace with God. Some even use this opportunity to offer up their sufferings. When the "quality of life" issue comes up, this too is our test.
I was at a parish where one of the ushers had Downs Syndrome. He was always immaculately dressed in a suit, with nicely styled hair and always well-mannered. He was loved. And he served in the community. That community passed.
Even in my current parish, another usher suffered from severe Epilepsy, and was barely able to function. He could not hold a regular job, but he volunteered everywhere. He was an example for us. Not a burden. He became my daughter's Godfather. Little did we know that she would also suffer from seizures due to mild Cerebral Palsy. He died not long after my daughter was born, so she never really got to know him, but I know that he is watching over her.
This world will pass away. It is not this world that should concern us but the next. In this world, it is our job to endure to the end and to bring as many with us as we can. Looking to the needs of others, and being a good example. And to notice the good example of others who have nothing by worldly standards and yet have everything in Christ.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Thanks for that contribution, Faith
One thing from God4Me's post resonates with my own view on this subject. Yes, God is Love.
It strikes me that there is no love without pain. At least not on this earth. Because we are so imperfect, we fail... and when we fail, we hurt those we love and who love us. And so there is suffering...
When I read the Genesis account, I am always wondering... Does God feel pain? Did it pain Him when Adam and Eve went their own way, or is that just anthropormorphism?
Sometimes when meditating on this, it seems to me that through Jesus, all the pain associated with God as Love was experienced in the Passion. Oh, how much more deeply must Love suffer than we suffer through our love or lack of it...
Edited by Diana Holberg on 02/20/2012 22:16:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Diana Holberg
Sorry God4Me... I don't think anyone chooses to be sick, excepting maybe people with Münchausen syndrome...
Of cause people with any sense will chose to be sick, But I know people who chose to saty sick even though they know what the Bible says about healing.
People chose to be sick in the sense that they don't bother to find out what the Bible says about healing.
People chose to be sick in the sense that they won't believe what the Bible says about healing.
People chose to be sick in the sense that they wont give up their sinfull life, Knowing that sin will hinder healing.
But what has Not chosing to be sick to do with the truth in the post That I put up??
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quote:
Originally posted by Diana Holberg
No one has specifically mentioned animal suffering... that's an interesting question though.
One question that has come up is that of long-term suffering like with cancer patients or diseases where people slowly deteriorate - where they exist long after any "quality of life" is gone. Similarly, the question of starving children has arisen. I think the suffering of innocents is probably the hardest to grasp. Lacking a mutual understanding of Original Sin, it's really difficult to explain.
I'll be interested in hearing how those with little or no grasp of redemptive suffering cope with these kinds of questions.
For the truth why people suffer from cancer, See my first post on this subject.
AS for people starving, That has nothing to do with God, There is enough money in the world for everyone to be a millionair several times over, It is just in the wrong hands.
As for the innocent, Again it come down to ignorance.
God said His people have gone into bondage because they have no knowledge.
He also said His people are destroyed through lack of knowledge, But Jesus said we shall know the truth and the truth will set us free.
The answears are in the Bible, And no suffering is down to God.
So if you want to know why God allows suffering..READ THE BIBLE.
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
When children are starving, that is our test. No child should be going hungry given that God has provided enough for all. Children are going hungry because we are not feeding them.
In Africa, there was famine that got the whole world's attention. But from the get go, that famine was man-made - caused by factions burning each other's crops in a deliberate attempt at genocide. This destroyed also the means of preventing erosion so that the good topsoil was blown or washed away.
These are things that should cause us to think and to act. And they did.
Slow diseases are a grace in some respects. They give someone pause to think and reflect and make their peace with God. Some even use this opportunity to offer up their sufferings. When the "quality of life" issue comes up, this too is our test.
I was at a parish where one of the ushers had Downs Syndrome. He was always immaculately dressed in a suit, with nicely styled hair and always well-mannered. He was loved. And he served in the community. That community passed.
Even in my current parish, another usher suffered from severe Epilepsy, and was barely able to function. He could not hold a regular job, but he volunteered everywhere. He was an example for us. Not a burden. He became my daughter's Godfather. Little did we know that she would also suffer from seizures due to mild Cerebral Palsy. He died not long after my daughter was born, so she never really got to know him, but I know that he is watching over her.
This world will pass away. It is not this world that should concern us but the next. In this world, it is our job to endure to the end and to bring as many with us as we can. Looking to the needs of others, and being a good example. And to notice the good example of others who have nothing by worldly standards and yet have everything in Christ.
The very fact that you said,
"Slow diseases are a grace" Proves that you don't know God or the Bible, If you had the Agape love of God in you for one minute, You would never think God will let us suffer.
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quote:
Originally posted by Diana Holberg
Thanks for that contribution, Faith
One thing from God4Me's post resonates with my own view on this subject. Yes, God is Love.
It strikes me that there is no love without pain. At least not on this earth. Because we are so imperfect, we fail... and when we fail, we hurt those we love and who love us. And so there is suffering...
When I read the Genesis account, I am always wondering... Does God feel pain? Did it pain Him when Adam and Eve went their own way, or is that just anthropormorphism?
Sometimes when meditating on this, it seems to me that through Jesus, all the pain associated with God as Love was experienced in the Passion. Oh, how much more deeply must Love suffer than we suffer through our love or lack of it...
[1]If there is only one thing in my post that resonates with you, Then you really dont know the Bible.
So I wouldn't bother to start a discusion group if I was you, All your going to give is your opinions and people want the truth.
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God4Me, I didn't say there was "only" one thing... that is your interpretation of what I said.
And that is what bothers me most about your post. Bible passages are great for inspiration and in the right context they convey truth.
I did not respond to the verses you quoted - I responded to your interpretation of them.
Meantime, the point of a discussion group in a virtual world is to share opinions. It is not a study group nor a classroom.
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quote:
If I desire pure water only, what care I whether it be served in a golden vessel or in a glass, as in either case I take only the water: yea, I would rather have it in a glass, because this has no other colour than water itself, which thus I also see better. What matter whether God's will be presented to us in tribulation or in consolation, since I seek nothing in either of them but God's will, which is so much the better seen when there is no other beauty present save that of this most holy, eternal, good-pleasure.
St. Francis de Sales, Treatise on the Love of God Book IX, Chapter IV
http://www.ecatholic2000.com/desales/log.shtml
Diana, I know this won't be of much help for your skeptic friends, but for those who already desire to seek the will of God first.
The former would only be swayed by something more philosophical like CS Lewis or Peter Kreeft.
I remember listening to a talk by Peter Kreeft a while back that addressed this very issue. Here is the link to that talk:
http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/15_cslewis-problem-of-pain.htm
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