The Bible vs the catholic canon
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The catholic canon,#9, & #12 says that if a person says they are justified by faith alone and nothing more is required, Let them be accursed.
The Bible says we are Justufied by faith.
Hab 2: 4. Rom 1: 17. Rom 3: 26. Rom 5: 1. Gal 3: 11. Heb 10: 38.
The Bible says we are Justufied by,
Grace Rom 3: 24.
The blood of Jesus, Rom 5: 9.
The resurrection of Jesus, Rom 4: 25.
PLEASE NOTE..no works or water baptism is neccesary.
The Bible says we are saved by faith alone, [Justified and saved mean the same],
Eph 2: 8. Titus 3: 5.
Can't you catholics see how evil the catholics are, They have repaced the Bible with the catholic canon.
So catholics, find out the real catholic dogmas and see how evil they are.
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God4me, what is the "catholic canon" you are referring to? The language you are using ("let them be accursed") sounds like something from Trent... or possibly the Code of Canon Law...
These are authoritative documents, but certainly not a "canon" in the sense that the Bible is our canon.
Saying the council documents or the Code of Canon Law is a canon is rather like saying the Ten Commandments or the Levitical Law was the canon of the Jews. Surely you can see this distinction?
I need to get to work now but will check back here later and hopefully respond to your assumption that grace and works are incompatible.
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quote:
Originally posted by Diana Holberg
God4me, what is the "catholic canon" you are referring to? The language you are using ("let them be accursed") sounds like something from Trent... or possibly the Code of Canon Law...
These are authoritative documents, but certainly not a "canon" in the sense that the Bible is our canon.
Saying the council documents or the Code of Canon Law is a canon is rather like saying the Ten Commandments or the Levitical Law was the canon of the Jews. Surely you can see this distinction?
I need to get to work now but will check back here later and hopefully respond to your assumption that grace and works are incompatible.
The Bible is the Christians canon, And trent is the catholic canon.
Trent and other catholic canons should be believed by every catholic, If they don't believe them they are a hypocrite, They say they are catholic but don't believe the catholic teachings.
It's like me if I went to a Church and don't believe their teaching, Then I would be a hypocrite.
So Diana, The catholics believe justification by works, And say anyone who says otherwsise is to be accursed.
If you believe them, Then you don't believe the Bible, And if you believe the Bible, You don't believe the catholic teachings.
You have a choice, Believe the catholics and stay in a catholic church, Or believe the Bible and leave the catholics.
When you get right down to what the catholics reall teach, You'll see how evil they are.
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quote:
Originally posted by God4me
The Bible is the Christians canon, And trent is the catholic canon.
Not so. Statements made during a Church Council have varying weights and varying intended audiences. Some of the statements have limited application too.
While Church Councils are inspired in the sense that the Holy Spirit does guide those participating, when they produce documents, those documents do not carry the weight of Sacred Scripture which is found only in the Bible.
During Mass, the readings are only from the Bible. If someone reads something from another authoritative document, it is (or is supposed to be) carefully kept separate from the readings from the Bible.
Similarly, the reading from the Gospels is always carefully kept separate from those written by others, so that there can be no mistaking that the Gospels -- especially the spoken words of our Lord Jesus Christ -- carry the most weight of all for Christians.
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Accursed hrm'anathema', it is the next stage from excommunication.
"
Amongst the Semitic peoples cursing was a religious act, and the Sinaitic legislation was rather of the nature of a purification of already existing usages than a newly-bestowed religion; as appears from the Code of Hammurabi. For the Semites the tribal deity was the protector of his people (1 Kings 20:23, and cf. the Moabite Stone 11, 4, 5, 14), and to "curse" was but to call down his vengence on their opponents. Again, the Hebrews were a chosen people, they were set apart, and in this seclusion lay their defence; hence at the conquest we find the cities and peoples of Chanaan declared to be hrm, or under a "ban": their religion was to bring salvation to the world, so it required the highest sanction and needed to be hedged about with anathemas against all who infringed its regulation. Again, the curses of the O.T. must be interpreted in the light of the times, and those times were hard "lex talionis" was the rule not only in Palestine but in Babylonia as well, cf. the Code of Hummurabi, nos. 196, 197, 200. It was the special feature of the New Testament that it abolished this spirit of retaliation, Matthew 5:38-45; the abuse of cursing was, however, forbidden by the Old Law as well, Lev., xx, 9, Prov. xx, 20. At the same time there are passages where the use of curses is hard to explain. The so-called comminative psalms must always remain a difficulty, few would be now prepared to defend St. Augustine's view that they expressed not a desire but a real prescience of what would happen (Reply to Faustus XVI.22 and Enarration on Psalm 109; see PSALMS). Simularly the curse of Eliseus on the little boys, 2 Kings 2:23-24, is at first repellent to modern ears, but it is to be viewed "in speculo aeternitatis," as St. Augustine says expressly (Enarration on Psalm 83, no. 2, and Enarration on Psalm 84, no. 2). But though cursing plays a very prominent part in the Bible, we rarely find irrational curses in the mouths of Biblical characters. Nowhere do we find in the Bible curses on those who shall violate the tombs of the dead, such as we find everywhere in Egypt and Babylonia, or on the sarcophagus of Eshmunazar at Sidon.
We referred above to the hrm, or "anathema". This is the most important of the O.T. curses in its bearing on N.T. doctrines. The doctrine enshrined in this word lies at the root of St. Paul's expressions touching the Atonement, e.g. in Galatians 3:10-14; and it is the precise meaning of the word "cherem" which enables him to treat of our redemption from sin as he does; cf. 2 Corinthians 5:21. The same idea is manifested in the words of the Apocalypse 22:3: "And there shall be no curse any more." Cf. also 1 Corinthians 12:3, and 16:22.
In the New Testament anathema no longer entails death, but the loss of goods or exclusion from the society of the faithful. St. Paul frequently uses this word in the latter sense. In the Epistle to the Romans (9:3) he says: "For I wished myself to be an anathema from Christ, for my brethren, who are my kinsmen according to the flesh", i.e. "I should wish to be separated and rejected of Christ, if by that means I would procure the salvation of my brethren." And again, using the word in the same sense, he says (Galatians 1:9): "If any one preach to you a gospel besides that which you have received, let him be anathema." But he who is separated from God is united to the devil, which explains why St. Paul, instead of anathematizing, sometimes delivers a person over to Satan (1 Timothy 1:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5). Anathema signifies also to be overwhelmed with maledictions, as in 1 Corinthians 16:22: "If any man love not our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema." Catholic Encyclopedia
The BIBLE was compiled by CATHOLICS - The Letter of St. Jude is listed among the seven Catholic, meaning universal, letters of the Church. Including The Catholic Letters, James, Peter, John and John's Revelation. If the Bible as protestants agree is the word of God and the Catholic Church gave the world the Bible, then the Catholic Church is as Jesus promised guided by the Holy Spirit yesterday, today & tomorrow until Christ returns. Any one who doubts the Catholic Church doubts the Word of God, or simply does not know what they are talking about.
Out of historical interest-
In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time Martin Luther preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:
There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.
The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).
No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).
Luther gives the Blessed Virgin the exalted position of "Spiritual Mother" for Christians:
It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother .. (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).
Martin Luther had the belief of Mary's Immaculate Conception, Luther's words follow:
It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).
Edited by Knights_Templar on 02/24/2012 10:11:12
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Catholicism teaches salvation from our sins through Jesus'grace & mercy, through faith with the indwelling Holy Spirit, and through works in cooperation with the needs of the Trinity & humanity.
Catechism is indexed online at http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/index/a.htm
Humanity is to "pick up our cross and follow Him" in cooperation with the Christ Jesus for the betterment of our souls as we prepare for our eternity with the Trinity.
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The Bible is the Catholic canon, silly. Do a little more research before you cast stones. I believe you're thinking of the Council of Trent.
"Be good, keep your feet dry, your eyes open, your heart at peace and your soul in the joy of Christ." - Thomas Merton
www.percalamus.com
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quote:
Originally posted by Diana Holberg
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
The Bible is the Christians canon, And trent is the catholic canon.
Not so. Statements made during a Church Council have varying weights and varying intended audiences. Some of the statements have limited application too.
While Church Councils are inspired in the sense that the Holy Spirit does guide those participating, when they produce documents, those documents do not carry the weight of Sacred Scripture which is found only in the Bible.
During Mass, the readings are only from the Bible. If someone reads something from another authoritative document, it is (or is supposed to be) carefully kept separate from the readings from the Bible.
Similarly, the reading from the Gospels is always carefully kept separate from those written by others, so that there can be no mistaking that the Gospels -- especially the spoken words of our Lord Jesus Christ -- carry the most weight of all for Christians.
You can't get away from the fact that catholics oppose the Bible.
So what are going to do about it??, I have shown you how evil they are.
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Misunderstanding or deliberate misrepresentation only can account for there failure to credit the origin of the Bible to the Catholic Church. Even one of her most bitter enemies, the Father of Protestanism, acknowledged that historic fact. Martin Luther said condescendingly and offensively in his Commentary on St. John chapter XIV, that "We are compelled to concede to the papists that they have the Word of God; that we received it from them, and that without them we should have had no knowledge of it at all." A Christian Bible must be made up of the books in the Old Testament, as well as the books in the New Testament. Hence the Council of Carthage included the Septuagint version of 46 Old Testament books in its canon of sacred Scripture. protestants hold, as do all Protestant ministers, that 7 of these 46 books are "apocrypha" (spurious). This was denied by St. Cyril, Bishop of Alexandria, eleven centuries before Protestantism began to inflict the religious world with its counterfeit editions of the Bible.
The Septuagint translation was made during the third century before the Christian era, at "a time when the Jews were no longer able to understand Aramaic, nor, for that matter, read Hebrew. That is why the Hebrew Bible had to be translated into Greek, the well known Septuagint version," as was declared in The Pictorial History of the Jewish People" (N.Y; 1953). Theological Seminary of America says, "one of the most important translations ever made" (The Jews: Their History, Culture and Religion, vol.3, p.748).
The Septuagint version of Sacred Scripture, which the Jewish Encyclopedia declares to be "the most important of all versions made by the Jews" (vol.3, p. 186), was made by 72 official translators, 'six learned, wise and saintly scribes from each of the twelve tribes of Israel," selected by High Priest Eleazar of Jerusalem, the world's supreme religious authority of his time. Eleazar furnished the translators with his most precious manuscripts of 46 books of sacred Jewish Scripture for translation. That translation included the 7 books Protestantism rejects, the translation that Vallentine's Encyclopedia of Jewish knowledge says "was greeted with enthusiasm by the Jews everywhere upon its appearance" (p.592)
there cocksure declarations regarding the Bible, that are not so, are simply amazing. For instance, protestants set forth the Protestant used canon of 39 books, against the Catholic used Septuagint canon of 46 books, declaring that the Septuagint was rejected by the Palestine Jews, without designating which Palestine Jews. Surely it was not rejected by the Jews who were religiously under the jurisdiction of the High Priests during the years when Judaism functioned as the religion of Almighty God; when the Jews had a priesthood, and a Temple with the one Altar divinely permitted for the offering of the Mosaic sacrifices. It was the Jews in Jabneh, the port city of Palestine, who rejected the Septuagint during the days after the Veil in the Temple was rent; when the Mosaic regulations were divinely a thing of the historic past; after Judaism had full-blossomed into Christianity. Vallentine's Encyclopedia of Jewish Knowledge says that the making of the 39 book canon "took place at the synod of Jabneh, in 90 A.D. (note the date), soon after the destruction of the Temple, at the instigation of Rabbi Akiba" (p.94).
Evidently protestants know not Rabbi Akiba who instigated the 39 book canon, which protestants, and all other Protestant ministers, have embraced. In the first place, Rabbi Akiba had no legitimate authority to form a canon of Scripture, such as the Jews had during the days of High Priest Eleazar; and the Catholics in the Council of Carthage had during the days of Pope St. Siricius. Secondly, Rabbi Akiba was a deadly enemy of our Messianic Lord. St. Justin (100-165 A.D.) said that Akiba "persecuted the Jewish Christians, and gave orders that if they would not deny Jesus and execrate His name, they would be tortured" (1st Apology XXXL). Akiba proclaimed a bold, fighting individual, named Simeon, the Messiah, giving him the name Bar Kochba, "Son of the Star." He led the futile revolt against the forces of Hadrian for the recapture of Jerusalem, at the cost of the lives of over half a million misled Jews.
protestants fail to realise that it was the anti-Christianism in Jewry that prompted the rejection of the Septuagint; and the making of the Akiba-instigated canon of Scripture which Protestantism embraced.
Catholics-
In 250 BC the Hebrew Old Covenant was translated for the first time into Greek. This translation was called the Septuagint (named for the 70/72 Hebrew scholars who worked on the translation). 1 & 2 Maccabees were added after this first Greek translation. All 46 books that we have in our modern Old Testament translations were the same 46 books that Jesus read and studied. Saint Peter and the first century Church adopted the Septuagint translation and the 46 books of the Old Testament (Covenant) as the official Bible of the New Covenant Catholic (Universal) Church. In the early years of the Catholic Church, the Apostles began to write letters back and forth to the various churches but no New Testament, as such, existed. The writings, the Gospels which were an account of the life, ministry and mission of Jesus the Messiah, St. Paul's letters, and the letters of St. Peter, St. James, St. John, and St. Jude which gave instruction in the New Covenant faith, began to be copied and shared between the churches.
Jesus preached His message of salvation through the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. It was the principal Scriptural translation that the first century AD Old Covenant faithful, including Jesus and His Apostles, quoted when referring to passages of Sacred Scripture. When Jesus read from the scrolls of Scripture in the synagogue at Nazareth, it was the Greek Septuagint translation of the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1-2 that He read from in Luke 4:16-21 and applied to Himself. When Jesus was teaching in Jerusalem and said, "...search through Scripture" in John 5:39, He meant the Greek Septuagint translation. When Saint Peter quoted from the Old Testament in his first great homily on the Feast of Pentecost in Acts chapter two it was the Greek Septuagint that he quoted to prove the promise of the Messiah had been fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth, and when St. Paul writes in 2 Timothy 3:16, All Scripture is inspired by God and useful for refuting error, for guiding people's lives and teaching them to be upright, he is speaking of the sacred text Christians must study and reflect upon in the Septuagint translation. Of the approximately 350 Old Testament quotations in the New Testament, it has been estimated that 300 are from the Septuagint; other passages agree with both the Masoretic and Septuagint versions.
It cannot be disputed that the vast majority of the Old Testament quotations in the New Testament are from this pre-Incarnation Greek translation. Copies of the Septuagint have been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which date prior to the Roman destruction of the site in 68AD, and among the documents discovered at the cave of Nahal Hever, dating to prior to 134AD. The oldest surviving copies of the Septuagint, which are complete or almost complete manuscripts like the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus, date to the fourth century AD, while the Codex Alexandrinus dates to the fifth century AD.
Out of historical interest- James the 1st was 'gay'
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quote:
Originally posted by Knights_Templar
Accursed hrm'anathema', it is the next stage from excommunication.
"
Amongst the Semitic peoples cursing was a religious act, and the Sinaitic legislation was rather of the nature of a purification of already existing usages than a newly-bestowed religion; as appears from the Code of Hammurabi. For the Semites the tribal deity was the protector of his people (1 Kings 20:23, and cf. the Moabite Stone 11, 4, 5, 14), and to "curse" was but to call down his vengence on their opponents. Again, the Hebrews were a chosen people, they were set apart, and in this seclusion lay their defence; hence at the conquest we find the cities and peoples of Chanaan declared to be hrm, or under a "ban": their religion was to bring salvation to the world, so it required the highest sanction and needed to be hedged about with anathemas against all who infringed its regulation. Again, the curses of the O.T. must be interpreted in the light of the times, and those times were hard "lex talionis" was the rule not only in Palestine but in Babylonia as well, cf. the Code of Hummurabi, nos. 196, 197, 200. It was the special feature of the New Testament that it abolished this spirit of retaliation, Matthew 5:38-45; the abuse of cursing was, however, forbidden by the Old Law as well, Lev., xx, 9, Prov. xx, 20. At the same time there are passages where the use of curses is hard to explain. The so-called comminative psalms must always remain a difficulty, few would be now prepared to defend St. Augustine's view that they expressed not a desire but a real prescience of what would happen (Reply to Faustus XVI.22 and Enarration on Psalm 109; see PSALMS). Simularly the curse of Eliseus on the little boys, 2 Kings 2:23-24, is at first repellent to modern ears, but it is to be viewed "in speculo aeternitatis," as St. Augustine says expressly (Enarration on Psalm 83, no. 2, and Enarration on Psalm 84, no. 2). But though cursing plays a very prominent part in the Bible, we rarely find irrational curses in the mouths of Biblical characters. Nowhere do we find in the Bible curses on those who shall violate the tombs of the dead, such as we find everywhere in Egypt and Babylonia, or on the sarcophagus of Eshmunazar at Sidon.
We referred above to the hrm, or "anathema". This is the most important of the O.T. curses in its bearing on N.T. doctrines. The doctrine enshrined in this word lies at the root of St. Paul's expressions touching the Atonement, e.g. in Galatians 3:10-14; and it is the precise meaning of the word "cherem" which enables him to treat of our redemption from sin as he does; cf. 2 Corinthians 5:21. The same idea is manifested in the words of the Apocalypse 22:3: "And there shall be no curse any more." Cf. also 1 Corinthians 12:3, and 16:22.
In the New Testament anathema no longer entails death, but the loss of goods or exclusion from the society of the faithful. St. Paul frequently uses this word in the latter sense. In the Epistle to the Romans (9:3) he says: "For I wished myself to be an anathema from Christ, for my brethren, who are my kinsmen according to the flesh", i.e. "I should wish to be separated and rejected of Christ, if by that means I would procure the salvation of my brethren." And again, using the word in the same sense, he says (Galatians 1:9): "If any one preach to you a gospel besides that which you have received, let him be anathema." But he who is separated from God is united to the devil, which explains why St. Paul, instead of anathematizing, sometimes delivers a person over to Satan (1 Timothy 1:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5). Anathema signifies also to be overwhelmed with maledictions, as in 1 Corinthians 16:22: "If any man love not our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema." Catholic Encyclopedia
The BIBLE was compiled by CATHOLICS - The Letter of St. Jude is listed among the seven Catholic, meaning universal, letters of the Church. Including The Catholic Letters, James, Peter, John and John's Revelation. If the Bible as protestants agree is the word of God and the Catholic Church gave the world the Bible, then the Catholic Church is as Jesus promised guided by the Holy Spirit yesterday, today & tomorrow until Christ returns. Any one who doubts the Catholic Church doubts the Word of God, or simply does not know what they are talking about.
Out of historical interest-
In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time Martin Luther preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:
There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.
The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).
No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).
Luther gives the Blessed Virgin the exalted position of "Spiritual Mother" for Christians:
It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother .. (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).
Martin Luther had the belief of Mary's Immaculate Conception, Luther's words follow:
It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).
[1]The catholic canon curses anyone who believe the Bible's justificatio by faith alone, Therefore the catholics curse God, As He is the one who said we are justified by faith.
[2]Anathema means ."Unredeemable, cut of, cursed and death", Not the loss of goods.
[3]Mary wasn't the,
Immaculate conception.
Holiness personified.
without sin.
Luther got it wrong, He still had the catholics beliefs in certain doctrines.
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quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
Catholicism teaches salvation from our sins through Jesus'grace & mercy, through faith with the indwelling Holy Spirit, and through works in cooperation with the needs of the Trinity & humanity.
Catechism is indexed online at http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/index/a.htm
Humanity is to "pick up our cross and follow Him" in cooperation with the Christ Jesus for the betterment of our souls as we prepare for our eternity with the Trinity.
I know catholics teach salvation faith in Jesus,mercy, grace,AND WORKS.
But it isn't what the Bible teaches
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Originally posted by acumenCry
The Bible is the Catholic canon, silly. Do a little more research before you cast stones. I believe you're thinking of the Council of Trent.
The catholic canon isn't Bible.
And the Bible isn't catholic canon..STOP TELLING LIES.
Where do you find the catholic teachings in the Bible???..YOU DON'T.
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Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification
James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone." To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).
Heb. 11:6 - faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.
Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.
Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 - the faith we have must be a repentant faith, not just an intellectual faith that believes in God. Repentance is not just a thought process (faith), but an act (work) by which we ask God for His mercy and forgiveness.
Psalm 51:17 – this means we need a “broken and contrite heart,” not just an intellectual assent of faith. Faith in God is only the beginning.
John 3:36; Rom. 1:5, 6:17; 15:18; 16:26; 2 Cor. 9:13; 1 Thess. 1:3; 2 Thess. 1:11; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Heb. 5:9; cf. Rev. 3:10; Ex. 19:5 – this faith must also be an “obedient faith” and a “work of faith.” Obedience means persevering in good works to the end.
2 Cor. 10:15 – this faith must also increase as a result of our obedience, as Paul hopes for in this verse. Obedience is achieved not by faith alone, but by doing good works.
2 Cor. 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. This examination of conscience is a pious Catholic practice. Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.
Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.
James 1:22-25 - it's the "doers" who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.” Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.” The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom. 2:13.
James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.
James 2:19 - even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord. But they tremble. Faith is not enough. Works are also required.
James 2:20 - do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Good works in God's grace are required for justification. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about “saving faith.”
James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.
James 4:17 - in fact, James writes that the failure to do works is a sin! So works are absolutely necessary for our justification.
James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the "works" to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).
James 1:27 - another example of "works" is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.
James 2:25 - another example of "works" is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.
Joshua 2:9-11 - Rahab's fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22-25, Rahab alone acted and was saved. This is faith in action.
James 2:18 - to avoid the truth of the Catholic position that we are justified by both faith and works, Protestants argue the justification that James is referring to in James 2 is "before men" and not "before God." Scripture disproves their claim.
James 2:14 - James asks, "Can faith save him?" Salvation comes from God. This proves the justification James is referring to is before God, not men.
James 2:19 - also, James reminds us that even the demons believe and tremble. This refers to our relationship with God, not with men. Thus, our justification that requires works and not faith alone relates to our status before God, not men.
James 2:21 - James also appeals to the example of Abraham. Abraham's justification refers to his position before God, not men. This proves justification is before God, not men.
Acts. 10:35 – Peter teaches that anyone who fears the Lord and does what is right is acceptable to Him. It is both fear and works, not fear alone.
Rom. 2:7,10 - to those who by patience and good works will be granted glory and honor and peace from the Lord.
Rom. 2:13 – for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).
Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.
Rom. 6:16 - obedience leads to righteousness. Obedience is a good "work," an act of the will, which leads to righteousness before God.
2 Cor. 9:8 - Paul teaches that God will bless us so that we may provide in abundance for "every good work." Good works are encouraged to complete our faith.
Eph. 6:8 - whatever good anyone does will receive the same again from the Lord. God rewards good works done in grace.
Phil. 4:17 – Paul says “I seek the fruit which increases to your credit.” Fruits (good works) increase our justification. Paul says these works increase our “credit,” which is also called “merit.” These merits bring forth more graces from God, furthering increasing our justification as we are so disposed. But the fruits, works, and merits are all borne from God’s unmerited and undeserved mercy won for us by Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:8 - good deeds are excellent and profitable to men (just like the Old Testament Scriptures in 2 Tim. 3:16). Good deeds further justify us before God. This verse should be contrasted with Titus 3:5, where we are not saved by works of righteousness “we have done.” As further discussed below, in this verse what “we have done” refers to a work of law or obligation for which we seek payment. But verse 5 also says the “washing of regeneration” in reference to baptism saves, which is a work of grace, for which we are rewarded by God in Christ. There is a distinction between “works of law or obligation” and “works of grace.”
1 Peter 2:7-8; John 3:36 - shows that belief in Jesus means obeying Jesus. Having faith means being faithful, which requires good works as well. Hence, obeying Jesus means doing works of love, not just having faith alone.
Doubtful if this puts an end to nonsense protestant doctrine!
Out of historical interest- No protestant existed in the 1st AD; all Christians then were however Catholic!
Edited by Knights_Templar on 02/24/2012 14:02:30
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PM
Member since 01/25/2012
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
Catholicism teaches salvation from our sins through Jesus'grace & mercy, through faith with the indwelling Holy Spirit, and through works in cooperation with the needs of the Trinity & humanity.
Catechism is indexed online at http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/index/a.htm
Humanity is to "pick up our cross and follow Him" in cooperation with the Christ Jesus for the betterment of our souls as we prepare for our eternity with the Trinity.
I know catholics teach salvation faith in Jesus,mercy, grace,AND WORKS.
But it isn't what the Bible teaches
I know you've read Revelation and what Jesus says to His Church.
His speech is pregnant with the expectation of works.
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PM
Member since 11/08/2003
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by Diana Holberg
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
The Bible is the Christians canon, And trent is the catholic canon.
Not so. Statements made during a Church Council have varying weights and varying intended audiences. Some of the statements have limited application too.
While Church Councils are inspired in the sense that the Holy Spirit does guide those participating, when they produce documents, those documents do not carry the weight of Sacred Scripture which is found only in the Bible.
During Mass, the readings are only from the Bible. If someone reads something from another authoritative document, it is (or is supposed to be) carefully kept separate from the readings from the Bible.
Similarly, the reading from the Gospels is always carefully kept separate from those written by others, so that there can be no mistaking that the Gospels -- especially the spoken words of our Lord Jesus Christ -- carry the most weight of all for Christians.
Bumped since G4 really didn't respond to what I posted.
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PM
Member since 09/15/2011
satan4me"Luther got it wrong, He still had the catholics beliefs in certain doctrines."
If Luther got it wrong -then Luther got the reformation wrong!
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