Prayers for the dead
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Why do catholics light candles for the dead, And why do they say prayers for the dead.
And why do they do penance/works for the dead.
Does anyone know??.
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g4, we light candles as a symbol of our prayers and petitions, either to God or a departed brother/sister in christ. because catholics don't believe that death separates the church, (ie, peter and paul are still members of the catholic church) this isn't a problem like it is for evangelicals that only believe in the church present at locations on the earth. we can pray for them and they can pray for us still.
romans 14:7 For none of us lives in himself, and none dies to himself; 8. for if we live, we live to the Lord, or if we die, we die to the Lord.
Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9. For to this end Christ died and rose again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."
if we are truly Christs whether dead of alive then we should keep in mind that Christ said to love one another as He has loved us. if He gave his life for us then we can give our time, prayers, help to those in need as well.
it's part of the idea of the communion of saints or the belief that the church isn't just the building you go to, but is the entire people of God.
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
g4, we light candles as a symbol of our prayers and petitions, either to God or a departed brother/sister in christ. because catholics don't believe that death separates the church, (ie, peter and paul are still members of the catholic church) this isn't a problem like it is for evangelicals that only believe in the church present at locations on the earth. we can pray for them and they can pray for us still.
romans 14:7 For none of us lives in himself, and none dies to himself; 8. for if we live, we live to the Lord, or if we die, we die to the Lord.
Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9. For to this end Christ died and rose again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."
if we are truly Christs whether dead of alive then we should keep in mind that Christ said to love one another as He has loved us. if He gave his life for us then we can give our time, prayers, help to those in need as well.
it's part of the idea of the communion of saints or the belief that the church isn't just the building you go to, but is the entire people of God.
I take it you are joking??? Surely no one is thick enough to believe that..ARE THEY??
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Why do you think such a thing is unbelievable g4? Some people would say the same thing about the resurrection, or the incarnation. I think the same thing about people speaking in babbles and being slain in the spirit. The history on prayers for the dead is at least there, prayers for the dead come from the Jews, candles were placed on Christian graves in the catacombs, and the communion of saints is well established in Christian history.
What do you believe about the church? Apparently you don't agree that there are saints in heaven that are still part of the body of Christ. You probably mean believers on earth when you refer to the invisible church. Seems like you would have to e pretty thick yourself to go to all the trouble of believing in Jesus and resurrection and salvation only to end up with a bunch of dead people.
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
Why do you think such a thing is unbelievable g4? Some people would say the same thing about the resurrection, or the incarnation. I think the same thing about people speaking in babbles and being slain in the spirit. The history on prayers for the dead is at least there, prayers for the dead come from the Jews, candles were placed on Christian graves in the catacombs, and the communion of saints is well established in Christian history.
What do you believe about the church? Apparently you don't agree that there are saints in heaven that are still part of the body of Christ. You probably mean believers on earth when you refer to the invisible church. Seems like you would have to e pretty thick yourself to go to all the trouble of believing in Jesus and resurrection and salvation only to end up with a bunch of dead people.
[1]The difference between the resurrection, incarnation, tongues and falling out under the power of the Holy Spirit, Is, The are in the Bible, whereas praying for the dead isn't, Neither is lighting a candle for them....WAKE UP.
[2]Jews aren't Christians..WAKE UP.
[3]Christians never put candles on graves.
catholics did, But not Christians, They never believe in communiom with the dead...WAKE UP.
It might have been well established in catholic churches, But not in Christian Churches.
[4]Once a Christian dies, They are no longer the body of Christ, What can they do on the earth when they are in heaven??. WAKE UP.
[5]We don't believe in an invisible Church, [Where did that come from???]
[6]You said,
[Quote]
Seems like you would have to e pretty thick yourself to go to all the trouble of believing in Jesus and resurrection and salvation only to end up with a bunch of dead people.
[End quote]
What are you talking about?? ARE YOU DRUNK??.
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quote:
[1]The difference between the resurrection, incarnation, tongues and falling out under the power of the Holy Spirit, Is, The are in the Bible, whereas praying for the dead isn't, Neither is lighting a candle for them....WAKE UP.
please provide scriptural proof for being slain in the spirit. 2 maccabees supports the idea of praying for the dead. oh not in your bible? well who took it out? men?
quote:
[2]Jews aren't Christians..WAKE UP.
i know that but christianity stems out of judiasm. wake up. are you suggesting that christianity has no need or regard for jewish practice and history? if that is so then why even have an old testament?
quote:
[3]Christians never put candles on graves.
catholics did, But not Christians, They never believe in communiom with the dead...WAKE UP.
It might have been well established in catholic churches, But not in Christian Churches.
catholics are christians. and they were the christians in the early church period. you have already been told this and frankly i just don't have the time to keep going over very simple history with you. could you please take some time and do your own homework for a change?
quote:
[4]Once a Christian dies, They are no longer the body of Christ, What can they do on the earth when they are in heaven??. WAKE UP.
sad for you.  what is the point of your faith? tongues? getting rich? clearly it isn't about life everlasting so it must be about earthly gain. anyway the ancient church believes that death no longer has it's sting. those who depart in grace are still very much alive and part of the church. they are able to pray for us and we are able to pray for them (those in purgatory)...
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[5]We don't believe in an invisible Church, [Where did that come from???]
the pentacostals i knew believed in such a thing. either they dropped that idea or you are just ignorant of your own beliefs. i suggest you do a little research.
quote:
[6]You said,
Seems like you would have to e pretty thick yourself to go to all the trouble of believing in Jesus and resurrection and salvation only to end up with a bunch of dead people.
[End quote]
What are you talking about?? ARE YOU DRUNK??.
no. you said that people that die are not in the body of christ anymore. if they aren't part of christ (hidden with Christ in God) then what are they? dis-embodied spirits? not my fault if your theology ends up with a bunch of dead people.
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
[1]The difference between the resurrection, incarnation, tongues and falling out under the power of the Holy Spirit, Is, The are in the Bible, whereas praying for the dead isn't, Neither is lighting a candle for them....WAKE UP.
please provide scriptural proof for being slain in the spirit. 2 maccabees supports the idea of praying for the dead. oh not in your bible? well who took it out? men?
quote:
[2]Jews aren't Christians..WAKE UP.
i know that but christianity stems out of judiasm. wake up. are you suggesting that christianity has no need or regard for jewish practice and history? if that is so then why even have an old testament?
quote:
[3]Christians never put candles on graves.
catholics did, But not Christians, They never believe in communiom with the dead...WAKE UP.
It might have been well established in catholic churches, But not in Christian Churches.
catholics are christians. and they were the christians in the early church period. you have already been told this and frankly i just don't have the time to keep going over very simple history with you. could you please take some time and do your own homework for a change?
quote:
[4]Once a Christian dies, They are no longer the body of Christ, What can they do on the earth when they are in heaven??. WAKE UP.
sad for you. what is the point of your faith? tongues? getting rich? clearly it isn't about life everlasting so it must be about earthly gain. anyway the ancient church believes that death no longer has it's sting. those who depart in grace are still very much alive and part of the church. they are able to pray for us and we are able to pray for them (those in purgatory)...
quote:
[5]We don't believe in an invisible Church, [Where did that come from???]
the pentacostals i knew believed in such a thing. either they dropped that idea or you are just ignorant of your own beliefs. i suggest you do a little research.
quote:
[6]You said,
Seems like you would have to e pretty thick yourself to go to all the trouble of believing in Jesus and resurrection and salvation only to end up with a bunch of dead people.
[End quote]
What are you talking about?? ARE YOU DRUNK??.
no. you said that people that die are not in the body of christ anymore. if they aren't part of christ (hidden with Christ in God) then what are they? dis-embodied spirits? not my fault if your theology ends up with a bunch of dead people.
{1]I will show you ALL the scriptures where people are slain in the Spirit when you show me where the Bible teaches salvation by infant baptism.
[2]The book of 2 Maccabees isn't a God inspired book, If it was, God would have inspired the Christian translaters to put it in.
Or don't you think God still had the power to inspire people then??.
Besides, There would be some teaching on praying for the dead in the Bible as we have it today
[3]Christians and Jews are compleatley different, and so is their teachings, Stop trying to twist the truth.
[4]catholiocs aren't Christians..STOP TELLING LIES, And they weren't around until at least 300--600 years later..STOP TELLING LIES.
[5]The departed Christians will be alive, In heaven, But their work is finished, AS Paul said.
It is only Christ's body on the earth that neccesary for the work of God.
Where does the Bible say the departed saints are praying for us, And we can pray for them.
And where does the Bible say you can pray for those who you say is in purgatory??
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ritualistic behaviour keeps them ancored to the organization
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quote:
{1]I will show you ALL the scriptures where people are slain in the Spirit when you show me where the Bible teaches salvation by infant baptism.
if you could have you would have. as it is i was a pentacostal and already know there are none. never have i been given a good scriptural source to prove such a thing as being slain in the spirit.
quote:
[2]The book of 2 Maccabees isn't a God inspired book, If it was, God would have inspired the Christian translaters to put it in.
Or don't you think God still had the power to inspire people then??.
Besides, There would be some teaching on praying for the dead in the Bible as we have it today
sure it is. you just bought the protestant traditions canon. all the churches before them had it included. as a matter of fact the kjv originally had it too. use your head man. cannot you see who really was playing games with scripture? you try to blame the catholics but walla guess what the orthodox also have in their collection of books...
quote:
[3]Christians and Jews are compleatley different, and so is their teachings, Stop trying to twist the truth.
i'm not twisting anything. if you reject the roots of our faith then you must also reject the faith. jesus was a jew and so were the apostles. they referred to jewish concepts in their writings and didn't appear to be avoiding the typology of the old testament into the new. even their practice of such things like baptism have jewish roots.
quote:
[4]catholiocs aren't Christians..STOP TELLING LIES, And they weren't around until at least 300--600 years later..STOP TELLING LIES.
you stop telling lies ... i mean if you really believe that then your just stupid.. and maybe that is the case. you can't prove anything else after all. infants were being baptized in the 2nd century. you say that catholics baptize infants and non catholic christians don't.. but then you say that catholics weren't around untill 300... so who were the christians baptizing infants? you have tied the noose around your own neck dude.. roflmao
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[5]The departed Christians will be alive, In heaven, But their work is finished, AS Paul said.
no no no no no. you already said they were dead and not part of the church anymore. don't back peddle out of your cliam now that you have been spanked.
quote:
It is only Christ's body on the earth that neccesary for the work of God.
provide scripture only for that.
quote:
Where does the Bible say the departed saints are praying for us, And we can pray for them.
where does it deny this? look i'll remind you again that catholics rely on scripture and tradition... we acknowledge that scripture is the greatest part of tradition. without tradition there would be no scripture.. you deny tradition and so reject an important part of Gods word. you may as well ask where does the bible say trinity or where does the bible say that revelation 5:8 is part of the bible canon. 
quote:
And where does the Bible say you can pray for those who you say is in purgatory??
same as above. your theology rests solely on the bible but cannot support your own doctrines. mine doesn't have those requirements and i'm not going to reject a belief just because some modern men like you don't understand history or the scriptures.
especially when you cannot even prove your own doctrine about being slain in the spirit... from the bible.
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quote:
Originally posted by KathieBondar
ritualistic behaviour keeps them ancored to the organization
our traditions do define us, and bind us together into that great organisation/organism of the body of christ. our rituals of faith are really no different than our rituals of marriage, or family, or society. to attack rituals or custom and organization if too often only a attemtp to manipulate people into another organization or belief system.. is that what your after?
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
{1]I will show you ALL the scriptures where people are slain in the Spirit when you show me where the Bible teaches salvation by infant baptism.
if you could have you would have. as it is i was a pentacostal and already know there are none. never have i been given a good scriptural source to prove such a thing as being slain in the spirit.
quote:
[2]The book of 2 Maccabees isn't a God inspired book, If it was, God would have inspired the Christian translaters to put it in.
Or don't you think God still had the power to inspire people then??.
Besides, There would be some teaching on praying for the dead in the Bible as we have it today
sure it is. you just bought the protestant traditions canon. all the churches before them had it included. as a matter of fact the kjv originally had it too. use your head man. cannot you see who really was playing games with scripture? you try to blame the catholics but walla guess what the orthodox also have in their collection of books...
quote:
[3]Christians and Jews are compleatley different, and so is their teachings, Stop trying to twist the truth.
i'm not twisting anything. if you reject the roots of our faith then you must also reject the faith. jesus was a jew and so were the apostles. they referred to jewish concepts in their writings and didn't appear to be avoiding the typology of the old testament into the new. even their practice of such things like baptism have jewish roots.
quote:
[4]catholiocs aren't Christians..STOP TELLING LIES, And they weren't around until at least 300--600 years later..STOP TELLING LIES.
you stop telling lies... i mean if you really believe that then your just stupid.. and maybe that is the case. you can't prove anything else after all. infants were being baptized in the 2nd century. you say that catholics baptize infants and non catholic christians don't.. but then you say that catholics weren't around untill 300... so who were the christians baptizing infants? you have tied the noose around your own neck dude.. roflmao
quote:
[5]The departed Christians will be alive, In heaven, But their work is finished, AS Paul said.
no no no no no. you already said they were dead and not part of the church anymore. don't back peddle out of your cliam now that you have been spanked.
quote:
It is only Christ's body on the earth that neccesary for the work of God.
provide scripture only for that.
quote:
Where does the Bible say the departed saints are praying for us, And we can pray for them.
where does it deny this? look i'll remind you again that catholics rely on scripture and tradition... we acknowledge that scripture is the greatest part of tradition. without tradition there would be no scripture.. you deny tradition and so reject an important part of Gods word. you may as well ask where does the bible say trinity or where does the bible say that revelation 5:8 is part of the bible canon.
quote:
And where does the Bible say you can pray for those who you say is in purgatory??
same as above. your theology rests solely on the bible but cannot support your own doctrines. mine doesn't have those requirements and i'm not going to reject a belief just because some modern men like you don't understand history or the scriptures.
especially when you cannot even prove your own doctrine about being slain in the spirit... from the bible.
[1]I said I would show scriptures about being slain in the Spirit when a catholic shows me salvation by infant baptism.
Do you want me to go against my word??, A man's word should be his bond....YOU NAUGHTY MAN.
Theere are scriptures..STOP TELLING LIES.
[2]Maccabees isn't inspired by God, You have been decieve by the catholic lies. The reason they put it in their Bible, Is, To fit their erroneous teaching.
[3]quote][3]Christians and Jews are compleatley different, and so is their teachings, Stop trying to twist the truth.
i'm not twisting anything. if you reject the roots of our faith then you must also reject the faith. jesus was a jew and so were the apostles. they referred to jewish concepts in their writings and didn't appear to be avoiding the typology of the old testament into the new. even their practice of such things like baptism have jewish roots.
The Christian teaching is different to the Jews, STOP TELLING LIES.
[4]You said,
quote:
you stop telling lies... i mean if you really believe that then your just stupid.. and maybe that is the case. you can't prove anything else after all. infants were being baptized in the 2nd century. you say that catholics baptize infants and non catholic christians don't.. but then you say that catholics weren't around untill 300... so who were the christians baptizing infants? you have tied the noose around your own neck dude.. roflmao
STOP TELLING LIES, Christians weren't baptising infants,
Some so-called Christians might have done, But not born again Christians.
[5]quote][5]The departed Christians will be alive, In heaven, But their work is finished, AS Paul said.
no no no no no. you already said they were dead and not part of the church anymore. don't back peddle out of your cliam now that you have been spanked.
Man is a Spirit who has a soul and lives in a body, At death only the body dies, The Spirit/soul live on.
And the Christian go to live in heaven and their work is finnished as Paul said.
So If I said they were dead, You know waht I meant..stop twisting my words, like you twist the Bible.
[6]quote:
It is only Christ's body on the earth that neccesary for the work of God.
provide scripture only for that.
quote:
Where does the Bible say the departed saints are praying for us, And we can pray for them.
where does it deny this?
[A] The Bible doesn't have to deny what isn't in it.WAKE UP.
[B] AS for the proof of the departed saints not being neccesary for the work of God on the earth.
SEE.
Acts 2o: 24.
2 Tim 4: 6--8.
Lk 16: 19--31. Please note, It isn't the one in paradice who is doing the interceeding. It is the one in hell who is inspired by the devil.
Phill 1: 21--24. Please note, Pauls said it is needful for you that I stay.
He never [At any time] said, I will pray for you when I'm in heaven.
The catholics twist the Bible, and their teachings aren't in the BIBLE AS YOU KNOW VERY WELL.
Unless you are either very thick, Very ignorant of the Bible or down right dishonest.
[7]catholics don't rely on scriptures..STOP TELLING LIES.
They do rely on tradition, [THE ERRONEOUS CATHOLIC TRADITION].
You said.
quote:
same as above. your theology rests solely on the bible but cannot support your own doctrines. mine doesn't have those requirements and i'm not going to reject a belief just because some modern men like you don't understand history or the scriptures.
[End quote]
[A]The bible does suport mt teachings..STOP TELLING LIES.YOU NAUGHTY MAN.
[B]You know the Bible doesn't support your doctrines.
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The spread of Christianity can be traced by the veneration of saints and relics. They worshipped among the dead in the catacombs, wrote inscriptions on graves of the departed asking for their intercession and collected their relics.
Some will ignorantly suggest that this was paganism creeping into the church from the earliest days. The problem with this is that pagans practiced a complete separation of the dead and the living. The dead were buried outside of the city. Out of sight, out of mind. This was pretty much a universal understanding which put a chasm between life and death.
The question then is, if there was no prior practice of this in the ancient world, where did this practice come from?
It came directly from Christianity, evident from the earliest days. The understanding and practice developed over time.
It also has roots in Judaism, where the Jews prayed and still do pray for their dead. This is evident in Maccabees which also speaks of the resurrection. Whether some reject Maccabees as scriptural doesn't discount it's historical evidence prior to the coming of Jesus Christ.
We also see the power of the bones of Elisha the prophet in 2Kings 13:21 bringing a man back from the dead.
Then in Revelation, we have the prayers of the saints in the possession of the elders and angels being offered before the throne of God (Rev. 5:8, 8:4).
If someone continues to push the pagan origins, maybe we should compare which groups are more closely aligned with actual pagan customs of total separation of dead and living.
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
Originally posted by KathieBondar
ritualistic behaviour keeps them ancored to the organization
our traditions do define us, and bind us together into that great organisation/organism of the body of christ. our rituals of faith are really no different than our rituals of marriage, or family, or society. to attack rituals or custom and organization if too often only a attemtp to manipulate people into another organization or belief system.. is that what your after?
All you have is man made religious rituals, And you have to have them because there is no relationship with God, If you had a relationship with God, You would know you wouldn't need man made religious rituals.
catholics aren't the body of Christ..STOP TELLING LIES.
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