How would you know which spirit was good or bad?
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I was wondering if you prayed to the so called saints and one would answer you.how would you really know who was answering you? How would you know if it was from Gd or from the devil? If you are right about the saints being able to hear when we pray then so could all the evil spirits to right?
baby3
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1)Nowhere does the Bible in the new testament Church show where the dead talk to the living, That is because it was forbiden by God.
already showed you where this is with jesus talking to moses and elijah. god did forbid soothsaying and charmers and those that consult spirits etc.. but that is completely different than praying to a saint.
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Moses & Elijah talking to Jesus, wasn't a communication between the departed and Christians, It was a special one of with Jesus, Besides that was still in the old testament, AS the new testament wasn't here until Jesus died and rose agian and sent the Holy Spirit to the Church, Then they were living inthe new order of God's Church.
baloney g4. stop making excuses. jesus conversed with moses and elijah. he is our example.. maybe he isn't yours? i'm not interested in your timelines or in your new world order..
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You don't see the dead talking to the living in the book of Acts, Or the letter to the Churches.
PLEASE NOTE, Moses and Elijah wasn't interceeding, They were just speaking.
actually paul does pray for the dead and also comments on those baptizing for the dead in his letters. what i don't see in the book of acts or in the letters are people being slain in the spirit. sorry you lose again.
and yes moses and elijah were talking... most catholic practice only involves intercession but here we do see that the saints can actually also talk to us. this helps support such things as lourdes... thanks bro for pointing that out.
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2)WOW, You catholics go from bad to worse, Now you pray to Angels, And Angels aren't saints.
why is that from bad to worse? there are clear biblical examples of angels speaking to humans. and angels are holy right? that is what the word saint means holy. and angels are holy.
acts 10:22 Who said: Cornelius, a centurion, a just man and one that fears God, and having good testimony from all the nation of the Jews, received an answer of an holy angel, to send for you into his house And to hear words of you.
the word here for holy is hagios and is the same word used for saints.. looke like the catholics are right again.
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Fifth Member
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Member since 10/13/2007
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I don't pray to "so called saints", so I do not know. But I do know that evil spirits can't get past the sign of the cross. 
Now, how do you know if it is God or the devil answering you? I am pretty sure your answer is fairly similar to the Catholic answer.
"Be good, keep your feet dry, your eyes open, your heart at peace and your soul in the joy of Christ." - Thomas Merton
www.percalamus.com
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quote:
Originally posted by baby3
I was wondering if you prayed to the so called saints and one would answer you.how would you really know who was answering you? How would you know if it was from Gd or from the devil? If you are right about the saints being able to hear when we pray then so could all the evil spirits to right?
That is simple, If one answeared you as a saint, [Pretending to be a saint], You would know it is a demon.
Nowhwere in the new testament Church, In the Bible, Does it say we can pray to the departed saints, If you did and one answeared you, You know it would be a demon pretnding to be a saint.
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Nowhwere in the new testament Church, In the Bible, Does it say we can pray to the departed saints, If you did and one answeared you, You know it would be a demon pretnding to be a saint.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints
Revelation 5:8
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This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.
They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God.
Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us.
We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.
Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God.
Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
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Originally posted by bwellmysoul
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Nowhwere in the new testament Church, In the Bible, Does it say we can pray to the departed saints, If you did and one answeared you, You know it would be a demon pretnding to be a saint.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints
Revelation 5:8
quote:
This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.
They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God.
Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us.
We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.
Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God.
Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
1)That catholioc link is a lie from the devil.
2)Rev 5: 8 doesn't say the saints in heaven are praying for us, Or we are praying to them..DOES IT???..NO.NO...SO STOP TELLING LIES.
3)The Church, [The born again Christians] have been raptured to heaven in Rev 5, So, Rev 5 has nothing to do with the Church age.
It is the same with Rev 8.
So even if the saints in heaven were interceding for people, [Which their not], You can't link it to the Church age.
The Old Testament was under law.
The New Testament is under grace, [Not works]..And
The Tribulation period, [Rev 4, Onwards] Is under wrath.
And the Church is under grace..Not wrath...Lk 21: 34--36.
1 Thess 5: 9.
So, You are wrong on both acounts,
PS, bewellmysoul, Your soul will never bewell with lies like you post.
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baby, i would say that it's no different than praying to god or even hearing from a preacher or teacher. you have to test the spirits. if a saint said something that was opposed to the gospel, then it's probably not a saint. just like people claim god told them this or that or that the holy spirit told them whatever...
a great example would be listening to G4. he makes claims that are completely false all the time. so i don't pay attention to his babbling. i reject it because it isn't based on the truth and more importantly because he continues to try to play god.. condemning people to hell. i'm more concerned about who listens blindly to a person like that than to a person who is asks a saint for prayers.
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Originally posted by mikejuli
baby, i would say that it's no different than praying to god or even hearing from a preacher or teacher. you have to test the spirits. if a saint said something that was opposed to the gospel, then it's probably not a saint. just like people claim god told them this or that or that the holy spirit told them whatever...
a great example would be listening to G4. he makes claims that are completely false all the time. so i don't pay attention to his babbling. i reject it because it isn't based on the truth and more importantly because he continues to try to play god.. condemning people to hell. i'm more concerned about who listens blindly to a person like that than to a person who is asks a saint for prayers.
1)Anyone speaking from beyond, Wil be a demon, Not a saint.
GET IT RIGHT.
2)You are a liar, I have never made one fale claim.
You really are on your way to hell, And when you, And all catholics are in hell, You will know my claims are true, Plus, You will find that there is no purgatory.
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so when jesus was talking to moses and elijah, in full view of peter james and john... your saying that jesus in fact was listening to demons? when an angel is sent by god, in such cases as the annunciation your saying that the angel was really a demon? o.k. thanks for your input g4. and thanks for adding more false claims to your extensive list of false claims and accusations.
paul also states that messages can come from the spiritual world but his only prohibition seems to be that if they preach a different gospel then your not supposed to listen. we are also supposed to test the spirits, by john.
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Originally posted by mikejuli
so when jesus was talking to moses and elijah, in full view of peter james and john... your saying that jesus in fact was listening to demons? when an angel is sent by god, in such cases as the annunciation your saying that the angel was really a demon? o.k. thanks for your input g4. and thanks for adding more false claims to your extensive list of false claims and accusations.
paul also states that messages can come from the spiritual world but his only prohibition seems to be that if they preach a different gospel then your not supposed to listen. we are also supposed to test the spirits, by john.
PLEASE NOTE.
Moses and Elijah wasn't talking to Peter James or John.
They were talking to Jesus.
It was God who said,
"This is My beloved Son, Hear Him".
STOP TWISTING THE TRUTH..YOU NAUGHTY MAN.
When Paul said a messenger , He meant Angels, NOT men.
STOP TWISTING THE TRUTH..YOU NAUGHTY MAN.
Nowhere do you see a departed person speaking to a Christian, In the New testament Church, In the Bible.
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please note.. the dead were talking to the living. and god's claim to listen to his son wans't a prohibition to asking saints for their intercession. if that were the case, the voice would have rebuked jesus for setting a very bad example. so stop twisting the truth you naughty man.
we consider angels to be saints as well g4. we pray for michael the archangels intercession,, all the angels and saints. so stop twisting the truth yourself you naughty man.
nowhere do you see a person being slain in the spirit, babbling, getting gold teeth, etc.. in the new testament. again i will point out that your theology requires absolute biblical support, where ours relies on tradition which accompainies the sacred scripture. so stop holding us to your standards and start holding yourself to what you preach. otherwise your just another hypocrite.
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Originally posted by mikejuli
please note.. the dead were talking to the living. and god's claim to listen to his son wans't a prohibition to asking saints for their intercession. if that were the case, the voice would have rebuked jesus for setting a very bad example. so stop twisting the truth you naughty man.
we consider angels to be saints as well g4. we pray for michael the archangels intercession,, all the angels and saints. so stop twisting the truth yourself you naughty man.
nowhere do you see a person being slain in the spirit, babbling, getting gold teeth, etc.. in the new testament. again i will point out that your theology requires absolute biblical support, where ours relies on tradition which accompainies the sacred scripture. so stop holding us to your standards and start holding yourself to what you preach. otherwise your just another hypocrite.
1)Nowhere does the Bible in the new testament Church show where the dead talk to the living, That is because it was forbiden by God.
Moses & Elijah talking to Jesus, wasn't a communication between the departed and Christians, It was a special one of with Jesus, Besides that was still in the old testament, AS the new testament wasn't here until Jesus died and rose agian and sent the Holy Spirit to the Church, Then they were living inthe new order of God's Church.
You don't see the dead talking to the living in the book of Acts, Or the letter to the Churches.
PLEASE NOTE, Moses and Elijah wasn't interceeding, They were just speaking.
2)WOW, You catholics go from bad to worse, Now you pray to Angels, And Angels aren't saints.
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Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Nowhwere in the new testament Church, In the Bible, Does it say we can pray to the departed saints, If you did and one answeared you, You know it would be a demon pretnding to be a saint.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints
Revelation 5:8
quote:
This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.
They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God.
Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us.
We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.
Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God.
Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
OK That is a good answer but which saint went to heaven and did not? Why or how could we be sure they are their they may have had a sin that was very bad and we did not know of it.This is why only praying to God is safe,cause God does hear all the prayers of the saints.Jesus said pray to the Father and ask anything in MY name and it shall be given to you,In the Lords name not in anyone else's right?
baby3
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Jesus said "The dead know nothing" Why would he say this if the dead could hear us? I always wondered about this verse.I know we ask others to pray for us but we know they are the saints of God because they are part of us,but how can you really be sure that the dead can hear us?One place says the spirit goes back to the Father at death and others say we sleep and then others say we go to heaven if we are good but may go to Purgatory if we did not confess all our sins to be purged and made clean,but that denies the cleansing of Christ when we confess he is our Lord and saviour right?
baby3
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Member since 01/25/2012
Location: USA
quote:
3)The Church, [The born again Christians] have been raptured to heaven in Rev 5, So, Rev 5 has nothing to do with the Church age.
It is the same with Rev 8.
So even if the saints in heaven were interceding for people, [Which their not], You can't link it to the Church age.
The Old Testament was under law.
The New Testament is under grace, [Not works]..And
The Tribulation period, [Rev 4, Onwards] Is under wrath.
And the Church is under grace..Not wrath...Lk 21: 34--36.
1 Thess 5: 9.
So, You are wrong on both acounts,
PS, bewellmysoul, Your soul will never bewell with lies like you post.
Your theology rises out of the imaginations of one man in 1882:
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The other group that adopted Margaret Macdonald’s idea was the Brethren or Plymouth Brethren organized by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882).
Darby was educated as a lawyer, became an Anglican priest in 1826, but went on to found the Brethren in 1830. Darby visited the Macdonald home in 1830 and first presented the new pre-tribulation rapture doctrine soon thereafter.
The new doctrine was not received unanimously.
"The Roots of Fundamentalism," by Ernest R. Sandeen, in discussing the history of the Brethren, says that Darby introduced the idea of a secret rapture of the church and a gap in prophetic fulfillment between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel.
These beliefs became basic to the system of theology known as dispensationalism.
From 1862 to 1877, Darby lived in and traveled throughout the United States and Canada, spreading his message. He was a very appealing speaker and also intolerant to criticism.
At first he tried to win members of existing Protestant congregations to his sect, but met with little success.
He then spread his end-times message to influential clergymen and laymen in churches in major cities without insisting they leave their denominations.
Two of his converts were James Hall Brookes, pastor of the Walnut Street Presbyterian Church in St. Louis and Adoniram Judson Gordon, pastor of Clarendon St. Baptist Church in Boston.
These two men became leaders of the movement which spread the doctrine throughout the northeast and Midwest during the last quarter of the 19th century.
Dwight L. Moody also accepted the doctrine.
http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/issue06/pre-trib.htm
Who has more authority - the Early Church Fathers (Or) John Darby in the late 1800s?
Edited by bwellmysoul on 04/03/2012 08:14:51
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quote:
Originally posted by baby3
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Nowhwere in the new testament Church, In the Bible, Does it say we can pray to the departed saints, If you did and one answeared you, You know it would be a demon pretnding to be a saint.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints
Revelation 5:8
quote:
This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.
They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God.
Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us.
We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.
Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God.
Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
OK That is a good answer but which saint went to heaven and did not? Why or how could we be sure they are their they may have had a sin that was very bad and we did not know of it.This is why only praying to God is safe,cause God does hear all the prayers of the saints.Jesus said pray to the Father and ask anything in MY name and it shall be given to you,In the Lords name not in anyone else's right?
The souls of the saints (who are with God) are in heaven due to God's mercy when they reconciled their sins against man and God.
Saints on Earth pray for intercession through (and with) the saints in Heaven. Souls speak to souls.
Souls of the faithful are holy "be holy as My Father in heaven in Holy."
The heavenly host of angels are holy, Mary the Mother of God is holy. Holy souls join together to form the Communion of Saints.
P.S. Sainthood in the Catholic Church is a grassroot yet formal process. The process takes multiple number of years and generally requires proof through a miraculous action of God through the proposed saint.
Edited by bwellmysoul on 04/03/2012 08:22:25
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