Walking after the Spirit...
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Paul's epistle to the Romans is probably one of the most misunderstood books in the Bible among non-Catholic Christians.
But one of the most confusing developments has been the insistance among some Evangelical groups that our spirits are separate entities from the rest of us.
Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Each Christian is a single person who has a body and a spirit. Not a separate spirit cohabitating with an unconnected body.
We chose to walk after the spirit or the flesh. This is never a case where our spirit does one thing and our flesh does something else. WE, the whole person, body soul spirit, must choose to walk after the flesh or after the spirit.
In verse 11, it clearly states that the Holy Spirit that raised up Christ dwells in us, then that Holy Spirit shall quicken our mortal bodies - this is talking about our flesh and blood bodies not our "born again spirit". What we do in our flesh is very important, and we were called to NOT live after our flesh by doing the sinful things in our flesh, but instead to give up sinful deeds and follow after the Spirit and avoid sin.
The warning is clear that if we choose to fulfill the lusts of the flesh then we shall die - this does not mean die and go to Heaven, but die as in not gain eternal life in Heaven.
If we refuse to let our flesh and blood bodies yield to sin, then we shall live - have eternal life.
Even the early Christians had trouble following Christ as they too were drawn to sin, but Paul wrote about this often, especially in his letters to the Corinthians, but also elsewhere, to get the point across that we can do this. We can become what God wants of us. To be perfect.
Paul uses this same concept of walking after the spirit in Galations 5.
Galatians 5:16-17 16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
If one does not fulfil the lust of the flesh, this means that they are not giving into temptation.
And this is fitting with the rest of the Bible, especially in 2 Peter 2:9 where Peter plainly states that God knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation.
Sometimes I see verse 18 from Galations 5 getting misused which is easy to do if one rips it out of its proper context.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
All by itself, if the entire rest of the Bible is ignored completely, this looks like those that are led by the spirit do not have to obey God's Law.
What a horrific interpretation and completely wrong as this would make a liar out of Paul in his other writings, and of Jesus who says that we must keep God's Commandments to have eternal life.
What we are not under is the Mosaic Law. We are not bound to be circumcised or to offer bulls and goats or any of the other many ceremonial rituals of the OT.
We are under Grace not the Law, and this does not mean that we are free to break God's Laws - as Paul would say, and has many times, God forbid. But what it does mean is that we don't need to be fussing over the Law. We have God's Laws written upon our hearts. Jesus even simplified them with the Two Great Commandments. If we do everything out of love for God and our Neighbour, then there is no fear of breaking any law.
Criminals worry about the letter of the law because they are interested in loopholes so that they can get away with breaking the law. But law abiding citizens don't even think about the law. Why would they need to. Laws were never made for decent folks but for criminals and other law breakers.
The danger of verse 18 is that too many stop there and omit reading what comes after.
Galations 5:19-23 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
There is no law against the fruit of the Spirit. We are free to do these things without any law to restrict us.
This is what it means to walk after the spirit.
The works of the flesh that are mentioned above are not for us. Those that do these works of the flesh, any that are listed here and more, are not walking after the spirit no matter what they think their spirit may be doing, and such shall NOT enter the Kingdom of God.
Those that do not inherit the Kingdom of God are not saved. Period.
Paul says this plainly and he is warning born again Christians in the Church in Galatia, and all others who read this epistle.
Paul said plainly "...as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
It does not matter who does these things. If Paul did these things, he would have lost his salvation. He knows this and said as much elsewhere.
1 Corinthians 9:27 27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
The word for "castaway" here also means found unworthy, unapproved, failing the test. In other words, judged to Hell.
There is good news in the Bible, but most don't want to hear it. They want what the OT stiffnecks wanted. To gain reward without obedience or any effort on their part.
We are not in the OT anymore. The Jews figured they could just be circumcised and then live whatever way they felt like. Just like saying a sinner's prayer. Once circumcised/saved, always circumcised/saved.
Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
If we follow Him, listen to what He says (which means more than just hearing, but also doing), then we shall have eternal life.
He showed us how. He paved the way for us by dying for our sins, and giving us the gift of grace and faith to help us along the way.
We have been given so much and yet there are many who take all this for granted and still want more.
Are we are stiffnecked people? Are we like the Jews who came before? To just accept the covenant and then live as if we never heard of Jesus? To pay lipservice to God, while living a life of abandonment to sin without remorse or repentance?
That's how they did it in the OT. We know better.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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This is very good Faith,I hope no one will find fault with this because it is very good and on the dime.Thank You!B3
baby3
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Thank you for your kind words.
The funny thing is, there is such wonderful news in the Gospel message. I would like very much to preach it, but I see so much that needs to be clarified first.
The Good News is not that we are free to sin without consequence, but that we have been freed from the bondage of sin.
Our debt has been paid. We are no longer under the sin of Adam. And even our own sins can be forgiven - Christ gave His Apostles and their successors the ministry of reconciliation so that we could always have hope.
Jesus knows us. He became a man to be with us. He lived among us and died for us. He knows our weaknesses and accounted for them when He made His covenant with us. He has not hung us out to dry. He did not negate the everything God had done for the previous several thousand years either.
The Old Testament is preparation for the New Covenant. Every stage in the OT, from one covenant to the next, from Abraham to Moses to Christ, God has been preparing us for what we were meant to be. People of God.
There were already lots of people who didn't want to obey God. There was no shortage of people who just wanted to live without rules and do what they wanted without any consideration of how it affects them or others. That is not what God was preparing us for.
Jesus showed us the Way, taught us the Truth, and through Him we have the possibility of Eternal Life. He simplified the rules and made it easy for us. He taught us how love upholds the Law. And if we stumble, He is there to pick us up. As often as we sin, we can repent of our sins and be forgiven. But the wonderful gift of grace is that the more we turn to God, the less we will sin.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Division - Satan loves to divide. Archbishop Sheen says that the word “diabolical” comes from two Greek words dia+ballein, meaning “to tear apart.” dia means “through” or “between” and ballein means “to throw or to cast.”
A big division Protestants do is between faith & works.
It is a reacuring theme for Protestantism to divide.
Another division Protestantism makes is between Sacred Magisterium Sacred Tradition & Sacred scripture.
So it is no suprise that Protestants try to separate our spirit from the rest of us.
Through bigotry prejudices false assumptions & false premises Protestants are protesting a catholic church made up by Protestantism that does not actually exist.
Edited by michael on 04/17/2012 07:08:31
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Very well done FAL. How eloquent in its simplicity.
Ironically, it is Romans and Galatians that make up the core of Protestant theology, even superceding the Gospels, because Paul is said to be the primary expositor of the true Gospel.
There is a similar passage that contains the elements of body, spirit in relation to sin in 1Cor. 6. However, according to common objections that I've often heard, there is an escape clause.
1Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
The above seems pretty straight forward. You don't see Paul making a distinction between unbelievers and believers. The context here involves Paul admonishing the Church for allowing the incestuous fornicator to remain among them.
However, the escape clause that is typically raised follows:
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
12 "All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything.
So the objection is that these people were saved, so this list of condemning sins no longer applies to them even though at least one of them (the incestuous fornicator) is still living this way.
IOW, it is now lawful to act this way, but just not helpful? Is it just Paul's personal preference that he not be enslaved by such sins? That would seem to be the conclusion if Paul is really saying such things are now lawful.
The argument appears to be that once you've accepted Christ, and yet still do the shameful things that you did before, you are exempt from all these sins that would send an unbeliever to hell.
13 "Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"--and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.
Similar to Rom. 8:11 where it says the same spirit that raised Jesus will also raise us.
Now the rest, like Romans 8, shows the inseparable connection between the body and spirit:
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!
16 Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two shall become one flesh."
17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
It explicitly says that the person who unites their body with Christ is also one spirit with Him. How does this lend itself to a separated, unattached, perfect born again spirit?
If what Paul says is true, what is the case if our bodies are not joined to Christ, but to a prostitute, similar to what the fornicator was doing?
1Cr 6:18 Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body.
1Cr 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own;
1Cr 6:20 you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
FAL, seeing the way you so effortlessly explained Rom. 8 and Gal. 5, I would like to see you use that gift to go through this related passage.
Unfortunately, I often have a way of complicating the simple.
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Paul's epistle to the Romans is probably one of the most misunderstood books in the Bible among non-Catholic Christians.
But one of the most confusing developments has been the insistance among some Evangelical groups that our spirits are separate entities from the rest of us.
Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Each Christian is a single person who has a body and a spirit. Not a separate spirit cohabitating with an unconnected body.
We chose to walk after the spirit or the flesh. This is never a case where our spirit does one thing and our flesh does something else. WE, the whole person, body soul spirit, must choose to walk after the flesh or after the spirit.
In verse 11, it clearly states that the Holy Spirit that raised up Christ dwells in us, then that Holy Spirit shall quicken our mortal bodies - this is talking about our flesh and blood bodies not our "born again spirit". What we do in our flesh is very important, and we were called to NOT live after our flesh by doing the sinful things in our flesh, but instead to give up sinful deeds and follow after the Spirit and avoid sin.
The warning is clear that if we choose to fulfill the lusts of the flesh then we shall die - this does not mean die and go to Heaven, but die as in not gain eternal life in Heaven.
If we refuse to let our flesh and blood bodies yield to sin, then we shall live - have eternal life.
Even the early Christians had trouble following Christ as they too were drawn to sin, but Paul wrote about this often, especially in his letters to the Corinthians, but also elsewhere, to get the point across that we can do this. We can become what God wants of us. To be perfect.
Paul uses this same concept of walking after the spirit in Galations 5.
Galatians 5:16-17 16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
If one does not fulfil the lust of the flesh, this means that they are not giving into temptation.
And this is fitting with the rest of the Bible, especially in 2 Peter 2:9 where Peter plainly states that God knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation.
Sometimes I see verse 18 from Galations 5 getting misused which is easy to do if one rips it out of its proper context.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
All by itself, if the entire rest of the Bible is ignored completely, this looks like those that are led by the spirit do not have to obey God's Law.
What a horrific interpretation and completely wrong as this would make a liar out of Paul in his other writings, and of Jesus who says that we must keep God's Commandments to have eternal life.
What we are not under is the Mosaic Law. We are not bound to be circumcised or to offer bulls and goats or any of the other many ceremonial rituals of the OT.
We are under Grace not the Law, and this does not mean that we are free to break God's Laws - as Paul would say, and has many times, God forbid. But what it does mean is that we don't need to be fussing over the Law. We have God's Laws written upon our hearts. Jesus even simplified them with the Two Great Commandments. If we do everything out of love for God and our Neighbour, then there is no fear of breaking any law.
Criminals worry about the letter of the law because they are interested in loopholes so that they can get away with breaking the law. But law abiding citizens don't even think about the law. Why would they need to. Laws were never made for decent folks but for criminals and other law breakers.
The danger of verse 18 is that too many stop there and omit reading what comes after.
Galations 5:19-23 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
There is no law against the fruit of the Spirit. We are free to do these things without any law to restrict us.
This is what it means to walk after the spirit.
The works of the flesh that are mentioned above are not for us. Those that do these works of the flesh, any that are listed here and more, are not walking after the spirit no matter what they think their spirit may be doing, and such shall NOT enter the Kingdom of God.
Those that do not inherit the Kingdom of God are not saved. Period.
Paul says this plainly and he is warning born again Christians in the Church in Galatia, and all others who read this epistle.
Paul said plainly "...as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
It does not matter who does these things. If Paul did these things, he would have lost his salvation. He knows this and said as much elsewhere.
1 Corinthians 9:27 27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
The word for "castaway" here also means found unworthy, unapproved, failing the test. In other words, judged to Hell.
There is good news in the Bible, but most don't want to hear it. They want what the OT stiffnecks wanted. To gain reward without obedience or any effort on their part.
We are not in the OT anymore. The Jews figured they could just be circumcised and then live whatever way they felt like. Just like saying a sinner's prayer. Once circumcised/saved, always circumcised/saved.
Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
If we follow Him, listen to what He says (which means more than just hearing, but also doing), then we shall have eternal life.
He showed us how. He paved the way for us by dying for our sins, and giving us the gift of grace and faith to help us along the way.
We have been given so much and yet there are many who take all this for granted and still want more.
Are we are stiffnecked people? Are we like the Jews who came before? To just accept the covenant and then live as if we never heard of Jesus? To pay lipservice to God, while living a life of abandonment to sin without remorse or repentance?
That's how they did it in the OT. We know better.
Os the Holy Spirit and Jesus body the same?
is God the same as the Holy spirit as such?
But the truth is that all three the trinity is one, and looking az the trinity you can see the same with us as a trinity being, and it would be god to get your mind and body to walk like your born again spirit!
óne love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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The Father does NOTHING without the Son. The SON does NOTHING without the Father. The Holy Spirit does NOTHING without the Father or the Son.
Yes. We are made in the image and likeness of God.
So stop trying to say that our body can sin without our spirit.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Father does NOTHING without the Son. The SON does NOTHING without the Father. The Holy Spirit does NOTHING without the Father or the Son.
Yes. We are made in the image and likeness of God.
So stop trying to say that our body can sin without our spirit.
Why did God forsake Jesus on the cross?
The three are one like you said so If Jesus died on the cross God and the Holy Spirit died also because they are one according to your philosophy!
If you say God and the Holy Spirit didn't die as being one body and can't live without the other, then my teaching is right and is exactly like we are in the image of God and our spirit remain always holy and alive!
Also what is meant when Jesus gave up the ghost,what ghost Holy Ghost!
Joh:19:30: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Father does NOTHING without the Son. The SON does NOTHING without the Father. The Holy Spirit does NOTHING without the Father or the Son.
Yes. We are made in the image and likeness of God.
So stop trying to say that our body can sin without our spirit.
Why did God forsake Jesus on the cross?
The three are one like you said so If Jesus died on the cross God and the Holy Spirit died also because they are one according to your philosophy!
If you say God and the Holy Spirit didn't die as being one body and can't live without the other, then my teaching is right and is exactly like we are in the image of God and our spirit remain always holy and alive!
Also what is meant when Jesus gave up the ghost,what ghost Holy Ghost!
Joh:19:30: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
one love
If you understood Catholic Church teachings you would already know what the Catholic Church teaches about the Trinity. You are showing your ignorance of Catholic Church teaching right now. This is why I say Protestants are protesting a catholic church that they make up that does not exist.
I do not think you are actually interested in understanding the Catholic Church teachings on the Trinity but are just interested in creating confusion.
Why not talk about brain surgery or rocket science?
The bible is not a Protestantism book you have yet to tell me which Protestant denomination produced the bible.
The Trinity is not a Protestant doctrine.
Why do Protestants pretend to be experts on the bible?
The Trinity was not separated at Jesus death.
Through bigotry prejudices false assumptions & false premises Protestants are protesting a catholic church made up by Protestantism that does not actually exist.
Edited by michael on 04/18/2012 07:51:04
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Father does NOTHING without the Son. The SON does NOTHING without the Father. The Holy Spirit does NOTHING without the Father or the Son.
Yes. We are made in the image and likeness of God.
So stop trying to say that our body can sin without our spirit.
Why did God forsake Jesus on the cross?
He did not. Jesus was quoting the OT when He asked why God had forsaken him. And if you knew the rest of what Jesus was quoting, as every Jew present at that moment did, then you would know that it was a message of hope and affirmation that God does not forsake us. This is from Psalm 22.
The three are one like you said so If Jesus died on the cross God and the Holy Spirit died also because they are one according to your philosophy!
Only Christ's mortal body died, just as only our mortal body will die. And just as I said many times before, if the spirit leaves the body, the body dies. This happened upon the cross. "into your hands I commend my spirit". I said that no part without cooperation from the rest. At no time did I say that all three parts were exactly the same thing/substance.
If you say God and the Holy Spirit didn't die as being one body and can't live without the other, then my teaching is right and is exactly like we are in the image of God and our spirit remain always holy and alive!
No. Your teaching is wrong for the reasons I have given above. Spiritual death only occurs if we are sent to HELL. Jesus was not damned to Hell. But we can be.
Also what is meant when Jesus gave up the ghost,what ghost Holy Ghost!
Joh:19:30: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
one love
When we die, our spirit is separated from our body which is then buried. When Jesus died, His spirit left His body and His body was buried.
And, just as HE rose from the dead, so shall we, albeit under His power not our own.
Your reasoning is flawed. Your way makes it possible for part of you to go to Heaven and the rest end up in Hell. That is ridiculous.
God is three persons, we are ONE person. But even as three persons, God does not argue with Himself. God cannot get into a fight with Himself and have each person go their separate ways. Neither can we.
Our spirit is an integral part of us. Without our spirit, we die. Without the cooperation of our spirit which animates us, we don't move.
Our spirit cannot go wander off while we sin. Nor is our spirit bottle up in a prison while we sin. At times the temptations of the flesh may be more powerful than the will of our spirit, but that still makes it our fault if we sin.
Your spirit IS you. YOU are your spirit and your body and your mind and your soul. There is no Evangelist body that is separate from Little Evangelist the spirit. If your spirit separates from your body, then you are dead. Simple as that.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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And, Jdubya, I would love to take on that challenge and will when I get a few moments together to address it properly.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
1 Corinthians 6:5-20 5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
The biggest mistake people make with verses 11 and 12 of 1 Corinthians 6, is the same as before. They stop short and do not look at the whole context.
Paul is not saying that they are exempt from the rules given previously, he is chastising them for not behaving better because of their having been washed clean. This is a condemnation not a get out of hell free card.
As Paul has done many times, and especially in his letters to the Corinthians, Paul is WARNING his fellow Christians to not fall back into their sins. They and we have been redeemed from the bondage of sin. We belong to God now, not Satan. And with all this GRACE, and with all the other gifts that God has given us, it is unconscionable that we should be falling back into our sinful natures.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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PM
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And, yes, before anyone tries to say that Paul is talking about legal matters in court and not about the other sins, I would remind everyone that the court issue was just the initial matter that started Paul off on his diatribe. He would not have mentioned the other sins if they were not all part of the same behavioural problem.
We are Christians, and great things are expected of us.
To whom much is given, much is expected (Luke 12:48).
The good news is that with Christ all things are possible. By ourselves, this would be impossible, but through Christ and In Christ, we can do all things. Why do people think that healing lame leg is easier that keeping God's commandments? The young man in the Gospel found keeping God's commandments to be a cake walk - so easy that he found it barely worth mentioning. It was giving away his possessions that he found hard.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 04/18/2012 17:37:26
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
The silence is deafening.
I hope this means that people are still thinking.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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- -1209reputation
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Member since 03/06/2010
Location: United Kingdom
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Father does NOTHING without the Son. The SON does NOTHING without the Father. The Holy Spirit does NOTHING without the Father or the Son.
Yes. We are made in the image and likeness of God.
So stop trying to say that our body can sin without our spirit.
Your WRONG AGAIN..Do you ever get anything gight??.
Man is a Spirit who has a soul [The mind will and emotions] and lives in a body.
Our soul is part of us that makes the choices, if our soul sides in with the flesh, we become carnal, If our soul sides in with our spirit, We become spiritual.
Our body will sin as they are dictated to by our soul's desire to sin.
But the born again spirit art of us doesn't sin.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by michael
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Father does NOTHING without the Son. The SON does NOTHING without the Father. The Holy Spirit does NOTHING without the Father or the Son.
Yes. We are made in the image and likeness of God.
So stop trying to say that our body can sin without our spirit.
Why did God forsake Jesus on the cross?
The three are one like you said so If Jesus died on the cross God and the Holy Spirit died also because they are one according to your philosophy!
If you say God and the Holy Spirit didn't die as being one body and can't live without the other, then my teaching is right and is exactly like we are in the image of God and our spirit remain always holy and alive!
Also what is meant when Jesus gave up the ghost,what ghost Holy Ghost!
Joh:19:30: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
one love
If you understood Catholic Church teachings you would already know what the Catholic Church teaches about the Trinity. You are showing your ignorance of Catholic Church teaching right now. This is why I say Protestants are protesting a catholic church that they make up that does not exist.
I do not think you are actually interested in understanding the Catholic Church teachings on the Trinity but are just interested in creating confusion.
Why not talk about brain surgery or rocket science?
The bible is not a Protestantism book you have yet to tell me which Protestant denomination produced the bible.
The Trinity is not a Protestant doctrine.
Why do Protestants pretend to be experts on the bible?
The Trinity was not separated at Jesus death.
This did not answer my question!
Please address the question!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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