What is the pillar and bulwark of truth?
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1 Timothy 3:15"If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
''Most Protestants believe that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and no knowledge outside of the Bible is necessary for our salvation. But then why does Saint Paul write that the Church, and not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of the truth? This is a powerful text that refutes the Protestant theory of sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) which erroneously holds that the Bible is the sole source of Christian truth (a theory which cannot be found anywhere in the Scriptures). Instead, Saint Paul says the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.'' ''This means that all the truth Jesus left us concerning faith, morality and our salvation flows from a living Church which, as we have learned, is built by Christ upon the rock of Peter and his successors. As the Catholic Church teaches, God has given us His truth in the form of the living word (written Scriptures and oral tradition) and the living teaching authority of the Church, endowed with the gift of binding and loosing. In fact, it is because the Church is the foundation of truth that we believe in the Bible. This is because the Catholic Church put the Bible together by determining which books were inspired and which books were not. The Church completed its selection of the "canon of Scripture" at the end of the fourth century. If the Catholic Church were not the pinnacle and bulwark of the truth, our belief in the Bible would be without foundation.'' ''The Church's compilation of the Bible illuminates the error of sola Scriptura. As alluded to above, Protestants generally believe that God has revealed everything that is necessary for our salvation through the Bible alone. Consequently, they also believe that no knowledge found outside of the Bible regarding the Christian faith is necessary for our salvation. However, the knowledge of which Scriptures belong in the Bible and which Scriptures do not is necessary for our salvation because if we didn't know this we could be led into error. Further, this knowledge could only come from God because human beings cannot necessarily discern divine inspiration.'' ''The problem, therefore, with sola Scriptura, is that the knowledge of which Scriptures are inspired and which ones are not is not contained in the Bible. The Bible does not have an "inspired table of contents." Instead, this knowledge of the canon of Scripture is a revelation from God that is necessary for our salvation, and yet came to us from outside the Bible . This revelation was given to the Holy Catholic Church, and this historical and theological fact destroys the doctrine of sola Scriptura (interestingly, while Protestants reject the authority of the Catholic Church on most matters, they accept her authority in determining the New Testament canon of Scripture; we pejoratively call such picking and choosing which doctrines to believe and which doctrines to reject "Cafeteria Catholicism").'' ''If I were a Protestant trying to prove sola Scriptura, and there was a verse that said "the Bible is the pillar and bulwark of the truth," I would be proclaiming that verse from the roof tops. At the same time, if I were a Protestant, I would have to ignore 1 Timothy 3:15 to continue my protest of the Catholic faith.'' http://www.scripturecatholic.com/my_top_ten.html
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The next important question is determined the Church which is the pillar and bulwark of Truth as spoken of in Sacred Scripture. The Church which Jesus refered to as "His Church" which "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against".
Because today, there are multiple denominations whose independent leaders and leadership bodies endorse woman's choice including abortion, who bless homosexual unions, who deny the Trinity, who allow noncelibate female and male homosexuals into their priesthood, who teach that homosexual sex is not a sin, who turn a blind eye to multiple remarriages, and who even teach that "abortion is a blessing."
Edited by bwellmysoul on 04/24/2012 11:27:31
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Only one church existed at the time this was written. It is the Catholic church. You can try to twist it as much as you want but only one church exist for over the first 1000 years. Protestant's didn't come into existence until the 1500's. Its talking about one specific church. The apostolic church and Peter was the first pope. ''The gates of hell will never prevail against it.'' If you think otherwise what church is he talking about. Your one denomination of protestant? that didn't even exist at the time. If you claim the church no longer is the pillar and bulwark of truth. You call Jesus a liar since this is divinely inspired writing from God.
Everyone should go look up history. The Catholic church is the unrefuted church of old. Bishops,deacons,priests, it is the one true church. When Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom and when he said he would build his church it was on Peter and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Church teaching hasn't changed for over 2000 years the Catholic church stays true to its teaching. I don't care if we had corrupted popes in the passed. That's part of being human evil people are everywhere in every church. Jesus promised the church as a whole will never be prevailed against. As you can see are stance on all the evils of the world has not changed and will not change along with are teachings. We don't just say what are congregation likes to hear. Cause we need to keep are job. We don't conform to the world's evil.
Example if a protestant Bishop and group of his members go around stealing,raping and murdering people. Does that mean all protestant teaching is invalid and you all should no longer be protestant? No it just means you had a sick bishop and some members get rid of them and continue. Evil people will always exist until the end of time can't change that.
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Originally posted by bwellmysoul
The next important question is determined the Church which is the pillar and bulwark of Truth as spoken of in Sacred Scripture. The Church which Jesus refered to as "His Church" which "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against".
Because today, there are multiple denominations whose independent leaders and leadership bodies endorse woman's choice including abortion, who bless homosexual unions, who deny the Trinity, who allow noncelibate female and male homosexuals into their priesthood, who teach that homosexual sex is not a sin, who turn a blind eye to multiple remarriages, and who even teach that "abortion is a blessing."
[1]The Church that Jesus built, Rules out the catholics, Because they weren't formed until at least 300-600 years later.
Plus they don't teach Biblical truths.
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Originally posted by Kingofkings
Only one church existed at the time this was written. It is the Catholic church. You can try to twist it as much as you want but only one church exist for over the first 1000 years. Protestant's didn't come into existence until the 1500's. Its talking about one specific church. The apostolic church and Peter was the first pope. ''The gates of hell will never prevail against it.'' If you think otherwise what church is he talking about. Your one denomination of protestant? that didn't even exist at the time. If you claim the church no longer is the pillar and bulwark of truth. You call Jesus a liar since this is divinely inspired writing from God.
Everyone should go look up history. The Catholic church is the unrefuted church of old. Bishops,deacons,priests, it is the one true church. When Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom and when he said he would build his church it was on Peter and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Church teaching hasn't changed for over 2000 years the Catholic church stays true to its teaching. I don't care if we had corrupted popes in the passed. That's part of being human evil people are everywhere in every church. Jesus promised the church as a whole will never be prevailed against. As you can see are stance on all the evils of the world has not changed and will not change along with are teachings. We don't just say what are congregation likes to hear. Cause we need to keep are job. We don't conform to the world's evil.
Example if a protestant Bishop and group of his members go around stealing,raping and murdering people. Does that mean all protestant teaching is invalid and you all should no longer be protestant? No it just means you had a sick bishop and some members get rid of them and continue. Evil people will always exist until the end of time can't change that.
You must be a catholic, They tell lies as well.
[1]If you check the true Church history, You'll see that there has always been Christians ever since the day of pentecost when the TRUE Church was born by the Holy Ghost.
If you check the FALSE church history, You'll see that the catholics didn't start until at least 300--600 years later, And the pope even later.
[2]When the reformers [Protestants] came out of the catholic faith, and taught the Biblical truths, They weren't the only Christians of that time, As I said, There has always been Christians.
[3]peter wasn't a catholic, He was a Christian, He wasn't a pope, He was an Apostle.
How could Peter be a catholic or a pope, when catholics weren't formed at that time
And how could Peter be a pope when the pope was formed even later then the catholic church was ..GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.
[4]If you knew the Bible, You would know the Church Ministers.
Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors Teaches, And the Deacon as their helpers.
Where is the Bishop or priest??.
The Bishop, Elder and Shepherd are all the same, And they are the Pastor of the local Church.
[5]Jesus never gave the keys on the Kingdom to Peter, STOP TELLING LIES, And read Matt 16: 19,
Jesus is talking to the whole Church, v18.
He said in v18, "I will build My Church".. Then in v19 He said,
"I will give you, [The Church] the keys".
Jesus didn't build His Church on Peter, Just looking at the Bible alone proves that..Notice what Jesus DIDN'T SAY,
"You are Peter, And upon YOU I will build My Church"..DID HE??..NO.
This is how it reads in the original Greek.
"You are Peter,[Petros, A small rock or stone that is easily moved or shaken], AND upon this rock [Petra, A solid foundation]I will build My Church".
You say you stand against the evils of the world, But the catholic church is even more evil, As your pope's, bishops, priests and deacons, Know the Bible and the Greek, [Or at least they should do], Otherwise they have no right to be catholic leaders.
Yet they twist the Bible and the Greek to build their own erroneous doctrines.
So, Who is more evil, Those who don't know the Bible/Greek and there truths, Or the catholics who do know them, Yet twist them in order of sending all the catholics to hell??.
For instance, The catholic leaders know what the Greek meaning for, "Baptism" is, [Or they should do], Yet they still don't baptise people By total immersion/submmersion,
Beleving that you need to be baptised to be saved, So, They really beleave that they are sending millions of catholics to hell.
The catholic church was formed by the devil, And the catholic leader are the devil's agents.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kingofkings
1 Timothy 3:15
"If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
''Most Protestants believe that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and no knowledge outside of the Bible is necessary for our salvation. But then why does Saint Paul write that the Church, and not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of the truth? This is a powerful text that refutes the Protestant theory of sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) which erroneously holds that the Bible is the sole source of Christian truth (a theory which cannot be found anywhere in the Scriptures). Instead, Saint Paul says the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.''
''This means that all the truth Jesus left us concerning faith, morality and our salvation flows from a living Church which, as we have learned, is built by Christ upon the rock of Peter and his successors. As the Catholic Church teaches, God has given us His truth in the form of the living word (written Scriptures and oral tradition) and the living teaching authority of the Church, endowed with the gift of binding and loosing. In fact, it is because the Church is the foundation of truth that we believe in the Bible. This is because the Catholic Church put the Bible together by determining which books were inspired and which books were not. The Church completed its selection of the "canon of Scripture" at the end of the fourth century. If the Catholic Church were not the pinnacle and bulwark of the truth, our belief in the Bible would be without foundation.''
''The Church's compilation of the Bible illuminates the error of sola Scriptura. As alluded to above, Protestants generally believe that God has revealed everything that is necessary for our salvation through the Bible alone. Consequently, they also believe that no knowledge found outside of the Bible regarding the Christian faith is necessary for our salvation. However, the knowledge of which Scriptures belong in the Bible and which Scriptures do not is necessary for our salvation because if we didn't know this we could be led into error. Further, this knowledge could only come from God because human beings cannot necessarily discern divine inspiration.''
''The problem, therefore, with sola Scriptura, is that the knowledge of which Scriptures are inspired and which ones are not is not contained in the Bible. The Bible does not have an "inspired table of contents." Instead, this knowledge of the canon of Scripture is a revelation from God that is necessary for our salvation, and yet came to us from outside the Bible . This revelation was given to the Holy Catholic Church, and this historical and theological fact destroys the doctrine of sola Scriptura (interestingly, while Protestants reject the authority of the Catholic Church on most matters, they accept her authority in determining the New Testament canon of Scripture; we pejoratively call such picking and choosing which doctrines to believe and which doctrines to reject "Cafeteria Catholicism").''
''If I were a Protestant trying to prove sola Scriptura, and there was a verse that said "the Bible is the pillar and bulwark of the truth," I would be proclaiming that verse from the roof tops. At the same time, if I were a Protestant, I would have to ignore 1 Timothy 3:15 to continue my protest of the Catholic faith.''
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/my_top_ten.html
You said
[Quote]
But then why does Saint Paul write that the Church, and not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of the truth? This is a powerful text that refutes the Protestant theory of sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) which erroneously holds that the Bible is the sole source of Christian truth (a theory which cannot be found anywhere in the Scriptures). Instead, Saint Paul says the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.''
[End quote].
[1][Q]What does the TRUE Church teach??? [A] The Bible.
Without the Bible, There is no Church.
Everything the Church does and teaches should be in line with the Bible.
Doen't Prov 30: 6 sum up the catholics.
V5 Is the Christians, And v6 is the catholics.
You ADD to God's word and He will reprove you.
You ADD to God's word, So you are liars.
What "Reprove" means, is, God is,
Disputing and argueing with you, And He will judge, correct and rubuke you.
I will stay with God's word, You can have you evil erronious traditions, I will stay with Sola scriptura [WHAT ELES IS THERE]??.
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G4Me, your fear of Catholicism stops you from reading about the Early Church.
The Early Church bishops, priests and deacons held liturgical services, using Sacred Scripture during their Masses and they celebrated the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in the Eucharist.
They're goal was universality; in worship, in faith, in morals, in practice, in Creed.
They were One Body. Catholic.
Which, isn't something that can be said of Penecostalism or of the Baptist faiths.
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Originally posted by bwellmysoul
G4Me, your fear of Catholicism stops you from reading about the Early Church.
The Early Church bishops, priests and deacons held liturgical services, using Sacred Scripture during their Masses and they celebrated the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in the Eucharist.
They're goal was universality; in worship, in faith, in morals, in practice, in Creed.
They were One Body. Catholic.
Which, isn't something that can be said of Penecostalism or of the Baptist faiths.
What in the world has the catholic church got to do with the early Church??, they are just a false man made religion that didn't start until 300-600 years later.
The First Christians were, Apostles, Prophets,Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers, with the deacons to help them.
PLEASE NOTE, No priests, And the Bishop is the Pastor.
They didn't twist the scriptures like the catholics do.
They remembered the death of Jesus in their communion services As Jesus told them, Nothing more.
They were one body, The TRUE body, Not like the false catholics.
catholics scritisise protestants for having different beliefs, But what the catholics don't tell us is, There are nearly 34 000 branches of catholics, All teaching different doctrines.
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G4Me,
You immerse yourself in lies about the Catholic Church and yet will not educate yourself about the Early Church - she was Catholic from her very beginnings.
You show no proof that Catholicism has "34,000 branches, All teaching different doctrines".
You are the proverbial broken record. You can't find the will to bounce out of the groove into which you have placed yourself.
Edited by bwellmysoul on 04/25/2012 10:00:00
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They remembered the death of Jesus in their communion services As Jesus told them, Nothing more.
You are blind to Truth because the Protestantism in which you were raised, has required you to be.
If you can not take St. Paul's words as Truth about the Presence of Jesus in the bread, then read the writings of the men and women in the Early Church.
Odd, how literal you take all other Scripture, except when it comes to the Eucharist.
Why then, do you twist Scripture and avoid any knowledge of the Early Church?
Edited by bwellmysoul on 04/25/2012 10:05:46
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''[1]The Church that Jesus built, Rules out the catholics, Because they weren't formed until at least 300-600 years later.
Plus they don't teach Biblical truths.''
What do you think happened to every church the apostles built. The early church is the Catholic church that's plain history. What do you think apostolic succession is? This is recorded history go look it up. There has always been ONE CHURCH for the first 1000 years. It was started by the apostles and their disciples succeeded them. Protestant's don't even refute this it is history. It's just silly to try refute history. The early church took on the name Catholic (universal) 300-600 years later. It wasn't made from scratch it was all the pre-existing church's. What do you think happened to all the first church's in history? They didn't get destroyed. They didn't disappear. They are all part of the Catholic church. Why do you think the Catholic church calls itself the ONE APOSTOLIC church. Because it is recorded history. from Peter down to this current pope passed down succession.
Also Jesus spoke Aramaic. Peter in Aramaic is Kepha. Kepha is the Aramaic word rock. So Jesus said the following.
Mathew 16:18/19
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Kepha, and upon this kepha I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
WHAT DOES THAT SOUND LIKE TO YOU? DOES IT SOUND LIKE HE IS TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF? NO! He also goes into detail how he is giving the keys of the kingdom of heaven to him and whatever he binds on earth is bound in heaven and whatever he looses on earth is loosed in heaven. Jesus is not saying he is guna give the keys of the kingdom to himself and whatever he binds on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever he losses on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Isaiah 22:22 Talks about the keys enjoy. 
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quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
G4Me,
You immerse yourself in lies about the Catholic Church and yet will not educate yourself about the Early Church - she was Catholic from her very beginnings.
You show no proof that Catholicism has "34,000 branches, All teaching different doctrines".
You are the proverbial broken record. You can't find the will to bounce out of the groove into which you have placed yourself.
[1]If the catholic church is the true one and only Church, What did God do before the catholic were foremed some 300-600 years later??. WAKE UP.
[2]It was a catholic priest who said you have 34.000 branches, all teaching different things.
If you search the internet, You'll find there are at least, A few catholic churches teaching different things, So, How can the catholic church say there is only one church??.
SO, Every time you say the So-called Apostles creed, You tell lies.
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It's your lie that the Church was formed in the year 300 or 600 or 400 or 500. You can't ever seem to make up your mind about that falsehood.
Do you have a name and a website (or any proof) as to which 'catholic priest' said that there are 34,000 branches all teaching different things.
You graduated college with a degree and you found your way here to post.
Are you suddenly incapable and unable to produce a website address?
Not that it matters; what one priest says (even amoung the tens of thousands of priests) is irrelevant to the Catholic Church.
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[1]If the catholic church is the true one and only Church, What did God do before the catholic were foremed some 300-600 years later??. WAKE UP.
[2]It was a catholic priest who said you have 34.000 branches, all teaching different things.
If you search the internet, You'll find there are at least, A few catholic churches teaching different things, So, How can the catholic church say there is only one church??.
SO, Every time you say the So-called Apostles creed, You tell lies.
[/quote]
That's a lie and if the priest did say that he is a liar or insane. The church teaching all stem from Rome and all the church's follow the same teaching. If they don't something is wrong. Every branch is united to the head. No one can teach anything other than what is taut by the head of the church.
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G4Me,
I have to ask. How does it advance the practice of your faith to believe that Jesus had blood brothers and sisters? Or that Mary had other children?
Is it just another argument for the sake of argument with Catholics?
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quote:
Originally posted by Kingofkings
[1]If the catholic church is the true one and only Church, What did God do before the catholic were foremed some 300-600 years later??. WAKE UP.
[2]It was a catholic priest who said you have 34.000 branches, all teaching different things.
If you search the internet, You'll find there are at least, A few catholic churches teaching different things, So, How can the catholic church say there is only one church??.
SO, Every time you say the So-called Apostles creed, You tell lies.
That's a lie and if the priest did say that he is a liar or insane. The church teaching all stem from Rome and all the church's follow the same teaching. If they don't something is wrong. Every branch is united to the head. No one can teach anything other than what is taut by the head of the church.
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[1]You are telling porkies, If you go on the internet, You'll find the catholics have different branches all teaching different doctrines.
[2]Everyone should have their own revelations from the Bible, As the Holy Spirit reveals them to us, Not all repeat parrot fashion like the catholics do.
No one know all the Bible, God is constantly revealg truth to His True Church, The Bible is progessive revelation.
Every Christian says the same thing, And that is,
"I have read that verse hundreds of times, But I never saw that before".
And that is because the Holy Spirit has just revealed it to them.
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