Was the rich man in hell or purgatory

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Originally posted by keeper49

It comes down to what we interpret hell to be. It's pretty obvious that you are literalistic G4 which would mean that the rich man was in hell destined for eternal damnation. And yet this thinking does not coincide with the parable. Hell, as a construct, would be a place absent of God or His attributes. Which is exactly what Catholics believe.

A person in hell for instance would have no remorse nor would they care even in the least about anyone other than themselves. This parable does not show that. The rich man genuinely cares about others in his family. This is a contradiction. Not only does it prove that those who have passed into death are aware of what's happening to the living, it also shows that these "dead" people can attempt intercession.

From the evidence presented in this parable, I believe the rich man is in fact in purgatory. My belief is a personal one, Catholics are not bound to believe one or the other. So, unlike your congregation, which must believe in YOUR interpretation, we can discuss it freely, without consequence.

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Originally posted by God4me
Your not willing to say what you think hell in Lk 16: 23--24 is ARE YOU??.

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"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.

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The rich man in hell was concerned about his family, Or are you calling Jesus a liar??.

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[3]Now your getting NAUGHTY again, Where does Lk 16: 23--30, Say the rich man knew what his family were doing??.
Also, What happened when he tried to intercede???. He got rebuked by Abraham.

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[4]If you, [Like some other catholics] believe it is purgatory, Then you'll have to admit that those in purgatory will never get into heaven.
Abraham said there is no crossing from one place to another after death. Lk 16: 26.

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So, If you can interpret Lk 16: 19--28, how you want to, Why can't you interpret the rest of the Bible as you see it??.
The catholic council says if you don't accept and believe what they teach, You are anathema...So how does that fit in with people being able to interpret Lk 16 how they want to??.

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[5]So much for the catholics "ONE church and one faith".
Some believe it is purgatory and some believe it is hell.

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[6]Born again Christians, Believe the Bible, And what Jesus said about Hell in Lk 16.
It isn't a case of having to believe it, It is knowing there is only one place it can be, And believing it

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Originally posted by keeper49

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The rich man in hell was concerned about his family, Or are you calling Jesus a liar??.

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What I am saying is that a person in hell would not have concerns about others. As a matter of fact they would want others to join them. After all their lord is Satan.

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[3]Now your getting NAUGHTY again, Where does Lk 16: 23--30, Say the rich man knew what his family were doing??.
Also, What happened when he tried to intercede???. He got rebuked by Abraham.

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At least you agree that it's possible that a person in hell can attempt intercession, if so, than certainly a fellow member of Christ's body can and and I believe does intercede for the living, and because of their place in heaven, due entirely by their works, shower graces upon those who ask them to.

If the rich man didn't know anything about the living, why attempt intercession for his relatives? for all he knew they could have already repented? Why does Jesus include this dialogue in the parable?

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[4]If you, [Like some other catholics] believe it is purgatory, Then you'll have to admit that those in purgatory will never get into heaven.
Abraham said there is no crossing from one place to another after death. Lk 16: 26.

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Neither Abraham nor the rich man were in heaven. And considering that Christ had not died and gone to hell, as the creed states, the rift was not accessible. However, we know that Jesus came to save sinners and in fact freed the souls that were detained from entering Heaven.
The Catholic doctrine of Purgatory merely states that those who die in Gods grace but not perfectly purified are purged prior to entering into heaven. Purgatory is a state of being perfectly balancing God's justice and mercy. Nothing imperfect can enter heaven. You do know that... don't you?

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So, If you can interpret Lk 16: 19--28, how you want to, Why can't you interpret the rest of the Bible as you see it??.
The catholic council says if you don't accept and believe what they teach, You are anathema...So how does that fit in with people being able to interpret Lk 16 how they want to??.

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[5]So much for the catholics "ONE church and one faith".
Some believe it is purgatory and some believe it is hell.

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Whether or not we see this parable as proof of either is not what the parable is about. I suggest you read the page before and after to see what Jesus was really talking about here.

LOL...G4 you haven't a clue as to what the Catholic Church teaches. There are dogmas that every Catholic must believe....Read the Nicene creed or the Apostles creed. Catholics are free to interpret Scripture verses personally as long as the interpretation does not contradict dogmas of the Church. Pretty simple stuff really.

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[6]Born again Christians, Believe the Bible, And what Jesus said about Hell in Lk 16.
It isn't a case of having to believe it, It is knowing there is only one place it can be, And believing it

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You are wrong again...as usual. Perhaps you can tell me where Abraham was? Was he in Hades, Sheol, Gehenna or Tartaroo?? I guess we can leave out the last one because it's only mentioned once and is the place of fallen angels.....Hell

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[1]Some catholic believe the rich man wasn't in hell, Because they say a person in hell wouldn't be concerned about his family.
ARE YOU DISAGREING WITH THEM??.

So much for your "One church, one faith".

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[2]The rich man got rebuked for trying to inetercede.
There is no Biblical teachings for the departed interceding for us.
So you can't build a doctrine out of it.

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[3]You said

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If the rich man didn't know anything about the living, why attempt intercession for his relatives? for all he knew they could have already repented? Why does Jesus include this dialogue in the parable?
[End quote]

You are just speculating AGAIN. And being silly.

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Quite the opposite, you're just plain dodging the question....as usual. Jesus was telling a parable and He was also telling the truth about the afterlife, which you fail to believe...so much for pentecostal theology.

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[4]Paradise and heaven are the same principle, Once your there, There is no crossing. STOP TWISTING THE TRUTH..YOU NAUGHTY MAN.

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I never mentioned paradise....so why are you twisting the Truth about what I said?

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[5]You said,
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The Catholic doctrine of Purgatory merely states that those who die in Gods grace but not perfectly purified are purged prior to entering into heaven. Purgatory is a state of being perfectly balancing God's justice and mercy. Nothing imperfect can enter heaven. You do know that... don't you?[End quote]


[quote]That is an insult to what Jesus died in agony for, He died to make us worthy to enter heaven, Not by any works that we do, The blood covers every sin.

The catholics insult God's love, mercy, grace and salvation offer, And Jesus shed blood, sacrifice and death.
What you are saying is, Jesus didn't compleat salvation, So we have to do works of satisfaction, penance and go through purgatory, To copleat it.
That is a demonic teaching fro a demonic church.

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Originally posted by keeper49

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[1]Some catholic believe the rich man wasn't in hell, Because they say a person in hell wouldn't be concerned about his family.
ARE YOU DISAGREING WITH THEM??.

So much for your "One church, one faith".

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Lol, I already told you what I believed concerning the rich man. Don't you read the responses before calling someone a liar? The Catholic faith is about grace and salvation brought about by Christs" death and resurrection.

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[2]The rich man got rebuked for trying to inetercede.
There is no Biblical teachings for the departed interceding for us.
So you can't build a doctrine out of it.

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And yet the fact remains that he was aware of his siblings and he did attempt intercession which is biblical proving your doctrine that the dead don't care about the living...false!!!

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[3]You said

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If the rich man didn't know anything about the living, why attempt intercession for his relatives? for all he knew they could have already repented? Why does Jesus include this dialogue in the parable?
[End quote]

You are just speculating AGAIN. And being silly.

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Quite the opposite, you're just plain dodging the question....as usual. Jesus was telling a parable and He was also telling the truth about the afterlife, which you fail to believe...so much for pentecostal theology.

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[4]Paradise and heaven are the same principle, Once your there, There is no crossing. STOP TWISTING THE TRUTH..YOU NAUGHTY MAN.

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I never mentioned paradise....so why are you twisting the Truth about what I said?

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[5]You said,
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The Catholic doctrine of Purgatory merely states that those who die in Gods grace but not perfectly purified are purged prior to entering into heaven. Purgatory is a state of being perfectly balancing God's justice and mercy. Nothing imperfect can enter heaven. You do know that... don't you?[End quote]


[quote]That is an insult to what Jesus died in agony for, He died to make us worthy to enter heaven, Not by any works that we do, The blood covers every sin.

The catholics insult God's love, mercy, grace and salvation offer, And Jesus shed blood, sacrifice and death.
What you are saying is, Jesus didn't compleat salvation, So we have to do works of satisfaction, penance and go through purgatory, To copleat it.
That is a demonic teaching fro a demonic church.

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Why would John talking to fellow Christian, who by your standard were already saved, warn them about sin unto death and in Revelations mention nothing unclean can enter heaven? Rev 21v27

You keep putting words into Catholic mouths which they have never said you liar. Certainly Christ finished the Work He had to do in order to redeem us, however, we were made to give glory to God and follow Christ's example of doing the Father's will instead of our own. Or a better way to put it would be to make the Father's will our own. Either way the Catholic Church has always accepted that it is by the grace of the cross that we are saved and not by any works. Works flow naturally from the grace which sanctifies us. Jesus did something; we must also do something; just as the apostles were commanded to do something..."Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

You continually twist the teachings of the Catholic faith to make your own infantile theology palatable to fellow uneducated Christians. The bible and all the codex's are available to you because the Catholic Church maintained them for centuries. There were no other Christians besides Catholics for 10 centuries.

Why do you continually malign the Catholic faith?

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Originally posted by God4me
There you go again, TELLING LIES, YOU NAUGHTY WICKED EVIL HELL BOUND MAN.

If you believe that Jesus compleated salvation, Why do you have to do penance, indugencies, works of satisfaction and have to go through purgatoty??.

catholics teach that we they are saved by what Jesus did AND their works, You add your own works..SO STOP TELLING LIES.

If Jesus did it all, What do we have to do?? MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
First you say Jesus compleated salvation, then you say you have to somthing.

The Bible says we are saven by grace through faith, NOT BY WORKS, Lest any man should boast.
Yet the catholics say, NO..NO..The Bible is wrong and the catholic church [Who teach works for salvation]is right.

Then you ask why I malign the catholic church...WAKE UP.
If you can't see the difference between the Bible and the catholic teachings, You really have been blinded by the devil.

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Originally posted by bwellmysoul

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Originally posted by God4me
There you go again, TELLING LIES, YOU NAUGHTY WICKED EVIL HELL BOUND MAN.

If you believe that Jesus compleated salvation, Why do you have to do penance, indugencies, works of satisfaction and have to go through purgatoty??.

catholics teach that we they are saved by what Jesus did AND their works, You add your own works..SO STOP TELLING LIES.

If Jesus did it all, What do we have to do?? MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
First you say Jesus compleated salvation, then you say you have to somthing.

The Bible says we are saven by grace through faith, NOT BY WORKS, Lest any man should boast.
Yet the catholics say, NO..NO..The Bible is wrong and the catholic church [Who teach works for salvation]is right.

Then you ask why I malign the catholic church...WAKE UP.
If you can't see the difference between the Bible and the catholic teachings, You really have been blinded by the devil.

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Jesus came to establish Himself as Son of Man and Son of God, in order to save us from the bondage of our sins.

Jesus said that we are to "be holy" that we must "do the Commandments" and that we are "to pick up our own cross and follow Him." Our salvation begins here on Earth.

Holiness is a learned behavior developed in human cooperation with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Catholics perform "works" because it adds to the Body of Christ through the Holy Spirit, and it fills our soul with joy. Works develop and strengthen - like steel armour plating - our faith, our hope and our love.

Penance is required in cases where restitution is a neccessity. In simple common sense terms, penance fixes or replaces what a person broke.

If my action breaks my neighbor's window, I am required as a good neighbor to walk over and pay for the window replacement.

If my words, thoughts or deeds break God's covenant either with Him or with His people, penance is a counseling requirement to assist my soul in its maturation.

Penance is one way to restore God's natural order - His Covenant with us (and) we with our neighbor.

Indulgences are community actions between His Church and His faithful. They are pius actions which assist in the alleviation of the consequences of our sins.

P.S. My suggestion is that you knock off your adolescent screaming and name calling. I have difficulty believing that you are past the age of puberty and many times doubt that you are old enough to attend college.

In addition, please try to remember that you are the sole representative for your denomination - on this board. The words which you present here - have effect and consequences on how we all here - view Pentecostalism.

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16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
New International Version (NIV)

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Timothy was a first-century Christian bishop who died around the year 80. The New Testament indicates that Timothy traveled with Saint Paul, who was also his mentor. He is addressed as the recipient of the Epistles to Timothy.

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http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/03/biblical-overview-on-penance-purgatory.html


Biblical examples of penance include Adam and Eve's exclusion from the Garden of Eden, the disobedient Jews in the desert wandering for 40 years, Moses forbidden to enter the Promised Land, David's sufferings due to his murder and adultery, and sickness and death resulting from taking Communion unworthily (1 Cor 11:30-32).

Jesus Christ gave His disciples (by extension, priests) the power not only to "loose" sins (i.e., forgive in God's name), but also to "bind" (i.e., impose penances): Mt 16:19; 18:18; Jn 20:23.

The faithful on earth can render atonement for one another by means of good works performed in a state of grace. The effect is the remission of all or part of temporal punishment for sin. This vicarious atonement among Christians is grounded in the unity of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, and is no different in kind than intercessory prayer for one another - indeed the most effective form. Examples in the Bible include Moses (Ex 32:32), Job (Job 1:5), and in St. Paul's teaching and practice (Col 1:24; 2 Cor 12:15; 2 Tim 4:6).

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Originally posted by bwellmysoul

Interesting, how selective and protestant your interpretation of Sacred Scripture is G4Me.

The Church quotes Scriptures and says that:

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16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
New International Version (NIV)

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P.S. Your denomination needs you to believe the proverbial "Catholics work themselves into Heaven."

They have been lying to you either from ignorance or to encourage you to stick with the Methodist/Pentecostal theology.


P.S.S.

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Timothy was a first-century Christian bishop who died around the year 80. The New Testament indicates that Timothy traveled with Saint Paul, who was also his mentor. He is addressed as the recipient of the Epistles to Timothy.

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Originally posted by bwellmysoul

Ouch G4Me, Scripture spanks you on the topic of penance!

Penance in Scripture:

New Testament:

Apocalypse 2:5

Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.


Romans 2:4

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and patience, and longsuffering? Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance?


Matthew 11:20

Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance.


Matthew 3:8

Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance.


Luke 13:3

No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

Old Testament (did Pentacostal throw out the knowledge to be gained in the Old Testament)...even though the Apostles did not?

Job 42:6

Therefore I reprehend myself, and do penance in dust and ashes.


Ecclesiasticus 2:22

If we do not penance, we shall fall into the hands of the Lord, and not into the hands of men.


Jeremiah 31:19

For after thou didst convert me, I did penance: and after thou didst shew unto me, I struck my thigh: I am confounded and ashamed, because I have borne the reproach of my youth.


Lamentations 2:14

Thy prophets have seen false and foolish things for thee: and they have not laid open thy iniquity, to excite thee to penance: but they have seen for thee false revelations and banishments.

Numbers 5:5-7

“The Lord said to Moses, ‘Tell the Israelites: If a man [or woman] commits a fault against his fellow man and wrongs him, thus breaking faith with the Lord, he shall confess the wrong he has done, restore his ill-gotten goods in full, and in addition give one fifth of their value to the one he has wronged.”


Ezekiel 18:21

But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die.

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