Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.
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Fifth Member
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Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim. Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin. The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness. If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust. Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold. Jesus would not condone such a thing. Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given. To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable. This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane. In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_fjBkwxc&feature=related Regards DL
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DL,
Mortal sin in the Catholic Church was three requirements.
1) Complete knowledge that a thought, word, deed or action is a sin.
2) Free consent of the will to commit the sin.
3) Grievious matter.
A person who turns from God - makes themselves their own victim of sin.
The Commandments are a forewarning to people that certain actions bind people - up into themselves; and away from God's will for them.
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quote:
Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.
Personal sin; actions against your body, mind and soul - harm you. Personal sin is self inflicting.
Hurt and damaged people tend toward hurting and damaging others.
Personal sin, like a cancer, grows. Some personal sin is unknowingly contagious, and in that way becomes communicable. And then in this way, personal sin makes victims of multiple numbers of people.
Edited by bwellmysoul on 05/10/2012 10:17:27
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Christ forgives our sins because all sin is against God. God is the "victim", if you must have one.
If we do ill towards our neighbour, of course we are called to make amends. If our neighbour sins against us and repents, we are called upon in the Scriptures, to forgive them.
Before God forgives our sins, we must repent of those sins. If someone has properly done this, then justice will be done for the earthly victim as well.
Of course, if your understanding is based solely on OSAS types and not the Bible itself, then I can understand the confusion. Those that believe that they never have to repent of their sins and that their sins are forgiven by God automatically by virtue of them having accepted the mythical free gift of salvation, do not accept the scriptures that say otherwise, they just don't want to be accountable for their own actions. There is no justice in that case.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.
Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.
The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.
If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.
Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.
Jesus would not condone such a thing.
Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.
To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.
This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.
In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_fjBkwxc&feature=related
Regards
DL
It's often said that unforgiveness is the poison you drink; in the hope that it kills the person who wounded you.
Jesus speaks about unforgiveness in this Scripture and asks that we open ourselves to forgiving those people who don't have the insight, knowledge or courage to come face to face to the person they harmed and ask for forgiveness.
Peter asks the Son of God:
quote:
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
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Jesus answered, “I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times.
That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants.
When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount.
Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt.
At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.’ Moved with compassion the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan.
When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a much smaller amount. He seized him and started to choke him, demanding, ‘Pay back what you owe.’
Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’
But he refused.
Instead, he had him put in prison until he paid back the debt.
Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and reported the whole affair.
His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’
Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt.
So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.”
Edited by bwellmysoul on 05/10/2012 12:19:32
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God is also just giam. Prudence and temperance along with love and mercy.
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Fifth Member
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Member since 07/12/2010
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
DL,
Mortal sin in the Catholic Church was three requirements.
1) Complete knowledge that a thought, word, deed or action is a sin.
2) Free consent of the will to commit the sin.
3) Grievious matter.
A person who turns from God - makes themselves their own victim of sin.
The Commandments are a forewarning to people that certain actions bind people - up into themselves; and away from God's will for them.
Is sin evil and who created evil and is the cause of all evil?
Regards
DL
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Fifth Member
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Member since 07/12/2010
Faith
Only a self-inflated ego could believe that they are powerful enough to hurt God.
Are you that powerful?
Regards
DL
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Fifth Member
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bwell
If Jesus spoke of how we should forgive, and we do, are you suggesting that a sin must be forgiven twice?
That would not be justice now would it?
Regards
DL
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Fifth Member
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Member since 07/12/2010
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
God is also just giam. Prudence and temperance along with love and mercy.
If so, then he would love the victim as well and not usurp her right and indeed compulsion from Jesus himself for her to forgive.
Regards
DL
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Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
Faith
Only a self-inflated ego could believe that they are powerful enough to hurt God.
Are you that powerful?
Regards
DL
God is LOVE. No power is necessary. All it takes is for one of us to turn from Him and He is wounded. Just because it won't kill Him does not mean that it does not hurt Him.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 01/25/2012
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
DL,
Mortal sin in the Catholic Church was three requirements.
1) Complete knowledge that a thought, word, deed or action is a sin.
2) Free consent of the will to commit the sin.
3) Grievious matter.
A person who turns from God - makes themselves their own victim of sin.
The Commandments are a forewarning to people that certain actions bind people - up into themselves; and away from God's will for them.
Is sin evil and who created evil and is the cause of all evil?
Regards
DL
You know the answer to this. Behaviors are both learned and transferable.
Sin is the lessening of what God has intended for us and it is a loosening from connectivity to the Trinity.
My inability to control my base appetites create behaviors and actions in me which can and do transfer out to reach and teach those people who surround me.
Sin can be likened to one drop of contaminate into an otherwise pristine body of fresh water.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 01/25/2012
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
bwell
If Jesus spoke of how we should forgive, and we do, are you suggesting that a sin must be forgiven twice?
That would not be justice now would it?
Regards
DL
In order to stop the transferance of sin, the person harmed must will him/herself to forgive the person who inflicted the damage.
In addition, the person who did the initial harm, must repent of their action, ask for God's forgiveness and mercy, and will him/herself to never commit that sin again.
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Fifth Member
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Member since 07/12/2010
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
Faith
Only a self-inflated ego could believe that they are powerful enough to hurt God.
Are you that powerful?
Regards
DL
God is LOVE. No power is necessary. All it takes is for one of us to turn from Him and He is wounded. Just because it won't kill Him does not mean that it does not hurt Him.
If God was love then he would have sacrificed himself and not his son.
You are a loving parent.
If you created a requirement of death, would you show your love by stepping up or would you have your child murdered?
Regards
DL
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/12/2010
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
bwell
If Jesus spoke of how we should forgive, and we do, are you suggesting that a sin must be forgiven twice?
That would not be justice now would it?
Regards
DL
In order to stop the transferance of sin, the person harmed must will him/herself to forgive the person who inflicted the damage.
In addition, the person who did the initial harm, must repent of their action, ask for God's forgiveness and mercy, and will him/herself to never commit that sin again.
So a dept must be paid twice in your view.
Immoral that.
Regards
DL
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/12/2010
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
DL,
Mortal sin in the Catholic Church was three requirements.
1) Complete knowledge that a thought, word, deed or action is a sin.
2) Free consent of the will to commit the sin.
3) Grievious matter.
A person who turns from God - makes themselves their own victim of sin.
The Commandments are a forewarning to people that certain actions bind people - up into themselves; and away from God's will for them.
Is sin evil and who created evil and is the cause of all evil?
Regards
DL
You know the answer to this.
Yes but you do not. Bob and weave away or get honest and return.
Regards
DL
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