Peter petra petros kepha
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If you want some seriously good, "non-partisan" linguistic research info on the Peter-petros-petra-kepha thing, you need to check out http://www.freetowne.com/pppkThe site just gives some pretty in-depth info, and actually gives source info and reference material, etc... more...
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In addition, you have to deny what the Early Church taught about Simon Peter - and 1,500 years of Church History - and that God granted to Moses an authoritative "seat" in the Old Testament - in order to swallow that protestant KoolAid.
Edited by bwellmysoul on 05/21/2012 09:44:07
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G4Me - The next "Papal" Ahmadinejad
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In addition, G4Me, if your denomination is the Early Church, do you follow the practices of the Early Church?
Does your denomination, at every service, gather together for "the breaking of the Bread"?
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http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/lesson_plans/lp0008.html
quote:
A. We see Peter in the New Testament as first-in-rank among the apostles.
•Peter conducted the selection of a new apostle to fill the gap left by the death of Judas Iscariot (Acts 1).
•He preached the first missionary sermon at Pentecost (Acts 2:14-41).
•He exercised disciplinary authority over sinful Christians such as Ananias and Sapphira, and the magician Simon Magus (Acts 5and 8).
•He frequently spoke in the name of the whole apostolic band (Acts 3:15, and 10:41).
•He admitted the first non-Jewish or "Gentile" converts into the Church (Acts 10 and 11).
•He spoke persuasively on the issue of the admission of Gentile converts to the Church at the first general council of the apostles and elders in Jerusalem.
•Clearly, Peter was doing what Jesus had called him and deputized him to do: lead, shepherd, and unify His flock.
B. Peter was not, however, an"absolute monarch" or "dictator" of the early Church.
•St. Paul once rebuked Peter publicly to his face for not living up to his own teachings on welcoming Gentile converts (Ga. 1:11).
•Of course, Paul was a saint and the saints are sometimes called upon by the Holy Spirit to challenge the Pope to live up to his high calling.
•St. Catherine of Siena rebuked a Pope for failing to return the papal residence to Rome, after lingering many years in Avignon.
•St. Philip Neri once sent a letter to a Pope admonishing him for his misconduct.
After all, popes are not sinless; they can fall short in their conduct and commit sins as any other Christian. But by reason of his office, and with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, he is still the "rock" and "shepherd" of the Church.
St. Paul once described St. John and St. James as "pillars" of the Church alongside Peter (Gal. 2:9).
•But this did not mean that they were all seen as equal "pillars" in St. Paul's eyes.
•In the same writing, St. Paul called Peter "Cephas" (the Rock) and went to check his own teaching with Peter above all the rest in Jerusalem (Gal 1:18, 2:9).
In one place the New Testament says that Peter and Paul were "sent" by the other apostles to Samaria on a mission (Acts 8:14) how can a pope be "sent" somewhere by his brother bishops?
•A pope can be "sent" to do something by his fellow bishops if he is humble enough and wise enough to recognize the call of the Holy Spirit in the consensus of his brother-bishops asking him to do something.
•For example, Pope John Paul II recognized the will of the Spirit when his brother-bishops, at a Synod in Rome, asked him to write an encyclical clarifying the Church's moral teaching. In that sense, they "sent" him to do something for the Church, with his consent.
•Pope John Paul II actually went the "extra-mile" for them, and wrote two such encyclicals: Veritatis Splendor and Evangelium Vitae.
At the general council in Jerusalem Peter did not seem to rule the Church, wielding papal authority (Acts 15:1-31).
•It was not necessary for Peter to "pull-rank" on anyone, because after he expressed his mind on the matter at issue, the whole assembly came together to a common mind. Persuasion was enough to secure the unity of the Council.
•When Peter had finished speaking "all the assembly kept silence" (Acts 15:12) because, after listening to the arguments, the chief Shepherd of the Church had just his view. This sealed the unity of the whole assembly.
Again, all this is evidence that in the NT, St. Peter is held to be, and behaves as, the chief Pastor and Rock of unity of the Christian community.
Peter was martyred in Rome under the Emperor Nero around 63 A.D. as attested to by numerous ancient authors (e.g., Tertullian, Peter of Alexandria, and Eusebius) and the remnants of his tomb have been found in Rome.
II. What was the attitude of the early Christians toward the ministry of the bishops of Rome, who claimed to carry on St. Peter's role.
Let us do an investigation, and pile up the evidence. Listen very carefully to each of the following four historical events – lets see what we can learn from them....
1. St. Clement was a pope near the end of the first century (d. ca. 96 A.D.). He had sat at the feet of the apostles in his youth, and according to one of his contemporaries, he "still had the apostles' teachings ringing in his ears".
•Clement received a letter from a church in Corinth, far away to the east in Greece. The letter informed him that the Corinthians had deposed (kicked-out!) their clergy.
•St. Clement responded: "Because of sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes [here in Rome] we think [pontifical "we"] our attention has been slow in turning to the things debated among you."
•St. Clement then reprimanded them for deposing their clergy and insisted, under penalty of sin, that they restore their clergy to their rightful places. He wrote, "If some are disobedient to the things [Jesus] has spoken through us, they should know that they are enmeshing themselves in sin, and in no small danger."
•In short, Pope St. Clement intervened i the affairs of faraway Corinth at his own initiative, and settled their dispute by the authority of the Church of Rome.
•In fact, his letter was held in such high esteem by the Corinthians that they were still reading it aloud in their church a generation later!
•St. Clement's pontificate was celebrated in the ancient liturgy of the Eastern Church by singing these words: "Peter, Prince of the Apostles, left thee [Clement] as worthy successor of himself; after him, thou didst rule the Church most capably."
•What does all this tell us about the attitude of the earliest Christians to the authority of the Bishop of Rome? (answer: that he has authority to intervene even in far away churches o settle divisive disputes).
2. St. Irenaeus of Lyons had learned the Catholic faith from St. Polycarp, a man who had known the apostle John personally. St. Irenaeus became bishop of Lyons, France, in the mid-2nd century A.D.
•In response to strange and secret doctrines put forward by some Christian fringe-groups, St. Irenaeus wrote these words:
We do put to confusion all those [heretics] by indicating that tradition [of doctrine] derived from the apostles of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul...for it is a matter of necessity that every church should agree with this church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful from everywhere...
•Later in the same book, St. Ireneus provides us with a list of the early popes, the Bishops of Rome, stretching right back to St. Peter himself, and he finishes by writing: "In this order, and by this succession...the tradition from the apostles and the truth has come down to us."
•What do these words imply about the attitude of 2nd century Christians to the authority of the Bishops of Rome? (answer:His office is descended from St. Peter; the Church of Rome and its bishops therefore have pre-eminent authority, and teach the truth from the apostles).
3. Pope St. Leo the Great (mid-5th century)
•In 451 A.D., the Church held a General Council of bishops at Chalcedon to settle a dispute that had arisen about belief in Christ i.e., is Jesus merely a inspired human being? Or solely a divine being? Or the divine Son of God, dwelling among us a human being?
•At tis time the whole western part of the Roman Empire lay in ruins due to the invasion of the barbarians, and even the city of Rome had been captured and sacked. The capital city of the Roman Empire had long since been moved to the East, to Constantinople, present day Istanbul.
•At this General Council in Chalcedon, 596 bishops attended from the eastern part of the Empire, but only four made it from the west, including the Pope's representatives, who read out a long letter from the Pope, firmly establishing that Jesus Christ is both fully human and fully divine. This is called "the Tome of Leo."
•After hearing the Tome, Bishop Peter of Corinth, who had been sitting among some bishops of a different opinion, crossed over to the hall to sit with the Pope's representatives; he was greeed with the shout "Peter thinks as does Peter – orthodox bishop welcome!"
•In the end, the bishops present embraced Pope St. Leo's teaching with the shout "Peter has spoken through Leo!" They composed a new "definition" (clarification) of faith that Jesus is fully human and fully divine, in conformity with the Pope's wishes.
•After the Council, the Patriarchs (archbishops) of Constantinople, Jerusalem, and Antioch wrote a letter to Pope St. Leo, calling him the "interpreter of the voice of Blessed Peter...the one commissioned with the guardianship of the vineyard by the Savior."
•The ancient Eastern liturgy, on the feast day of Pope St. Leo the Great, sings, "As the successor of the divine Peter, enriched with his presidency and primacy, Leo published his divinely inspired definition."
•What does this story tell you about the attitude of 5th century Christians to the role of the Bishop of Rome? (answer: that on matters of doctrine, he speaks with the authority of St. Peter, and protects the Church from false teaching).
4. Conflict with the Emperor. At the very end of the 5th century, the Byzantine Emperor (in Constantinople) tried to settle a theological controversy in the Church himself, by issuing an imperial edict requiring everyone in the Empire to accept his viewpoint.
•The Pope at the time would not stand for this, and he excommunicated the Byzantine Emperor, and all who supported him on this matter.
•Most of the bishops of the East (many of whom were appointees of the Emperor), whether out of fear or confusion, stood by the Emperor. As a result, the eastern and western portions of the Church were split from each other for about 30 years.
•In the end, however, the Emperor and the bishops gave in to papal demands and teaching authority. The bishops of the east signed a retraction of their rebellion, including these words,
"We cannot pass over in silence the affirmations of our Lord Jesus Christ, 'You are Peter, upon this Rock I will build my Church.' These words are verified by the facts. It is in the Apostolic See (the See of Rome) that the Catholic religion has always been preserved without blemish...This is why I hope that I shall remain in communion with the Apostolic See, in which is found the whole, true, and perfect stability of the Christian religion."
What does this incident tell you about the attitude of the Church's bishops in the early 6th century A.D. to the leadership role of the Pope? (answer: that his authority comes from Christ's promise to Peter, and makes the Pope an entirely reliable rock of "truth" and "stability" for the worldwide Church)
These examples could be multiplied...
Beyond any reasonable doubt, in the early Church the Bishop of Rome, the Pope was seen as and acted as the Church's Rock and leading Shepherd, the center of unity, truth, and stability for the world wide Church.
Is this not an answer to the prayer that Jesus prayed just before His arrest, agony, and passion?
Read together John 17:1-13. Why did He offer this prayer? (answer: "that they all may be one...").
Why did Jesus think it was so important that his followers be united in "love" and "truth"? (answer: that the world may believe...").
Teaching Note:
Have a large map of the Mediterranean area of the world on display during this lesson. Students should be familiar with the location of places such as Rome, Corinth, Jerusalem, Constantinople, Alexandria, Lyons, and other cities mentioned in this lesson – and with the geographical division between the Western and Byzantine Empires. Some familiarity with this geography is essential in order to understand the extraordinary reach of papal authority even in ancient times.
Edited by bwellmysoul on 05/21/2012 10:03:33
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quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
In addition, G4Me, if your denomination is the Early Church, do you follow the practices of the Early Church?
Does your denomination, at every service, gather together for "the breaking of the Bread"?
Yes, Unlike the catholics, We do follow the practices of the Early Church, In fact My Church is just like the early Church, We do healings and miracles, We speak in tongues and prophecy, We cast out demons and raise the dead.
If you came into my Church, You would think it is the Acts of the Apostles.Re-write.
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quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
In addition, G4Me, if your denomination is the Early Church, do you follow the practices of the Early Church?
Does your denomination, at every service, gather together for "the breaking of the Bread"?
Yes, Unlike the catholics, We do follow the practices of the Early Church, In fact My Church is just like the early Church, We do healings and miracles, We speak in tongues and prophecy, We cast out demons and raise the dead.
If you came into my Church, You would think it is the Acts of the Apostles.Re-write.
Wrong answer.
In Sacred Scripture, the Apostles and their disciples came together in prayer and for the "breaking of the Bread."
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quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/lesson_plans/lp0008.html
quote:
A. We see Peter in the New Testament as first-in-rank among the apostles.
•Peter conducted the selection of a new apostle to fill the gap left by the death of Judas Iscariot (Acts 1).
•He preached the first missionary sermon at Pentecost (Acts 2:14-41).
•He exercised disciplinary authority over sinful Christians such as Ananias and Sapphira, and the magician Simon Magus (Acts 5and 8).
•He frequently spoke in the name of the whole apostolic band (Acts 3:15, and 10:41).
•He admitted the first non-Jewish or "Gentile" converts into the Church (Acts 10 and 11).
•He spoke persuasively on the issue of the admission of Gentile converts to the Church at the first general council of the apostles and elders in Jerusalem.
•Clearly, Peter was doing what Jesus had called him and deputized him to do: lead, shepherd, and unify His flock.
B. Peter was not, however, an"absolute monarch" or "dictator" of the early Church.
•St. Paul once rebuked Peter publicly to his face for not living up to his own teachings on welcoming Gentile converts (Ga. 1:11).
•Of course, Paul was a saint and the saints are sometimes called upon by the Holy Spirit to challenge the Pope to live up to his high calling.
•St. Catherine of Siena rebuked a Pope for failing to return the papal residence to Rome, after lingering many years in Avignon.
•St. Philip Neri once sent a letter to a Pope admonishing him for his misconduct.
After all, popes are not sinless; they can fall short in their conduct and commit sins as any other Christian. But by reason of his office, and with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, he is still the "rock" and "shepherd" of the Church.
St. Paul once described St. John and St. James as "pillars" of the Church alongside Peter (Gal. 2:9).
•But this did not mean that they were all seen as equal "pillars" in St. Paul's eyes.
•In the same writing, St. Paul called Peter "Cephas" (the Rock) and went to check his own teaching with Peter above all the rest in Jerusalem (Gal 1:18, 2:9).
In one place the New Testament says that Peter and Paul were "sent" by the other apostles to Samaria on a mission (Acts 8:14) how can a pope be "sent" somewhere by his brother bishops?
•A pope can be "sent" to do something by his fellow bishops if he is humble enough and wise enough to recognize the call of the Holy Spirit in the consensus of his brother-bishops asking him to do something.
•For example, Pope John Paul II recognized the will of the Spirit when his brother-bishops, at a Synod in Rome, asked him to write an encyclical clarifying the Church's moral teaching. In that sense, they "sent" him to do something for the Church, with his consent.
•Pope John Paul II actually went the "extra-mile" for them, and wrote two such encyclicals: Veritatis Splendor and Evangelium Vitae.
At the general council in Jerusalem Peter did not seem to rule the Church, wielding papal authority (Acts 15:1-31).
•It was not necessary for Peter to "pull-rank" on anyone, because after he expressed his mind on the matter at issue, the whole assembly came together to a common mind. Persuasion was enough to secure the unity of the Council.
•When Peter had finished speaking "all the assembly kept silence" (Acts 15:12) because, after listening to the arguments, the chief Shepherd of the Church had just his view. This sealed the unity of the whole assembly.
Again, all this is evidence that in the NT, St. Peter is held to be, and behaves as, the chief Pastor and Rock of unity of the Christian community.
Peter was martyred in Rome under the Emperor Nero around 63 A.D. as attested to by numerous ancient authors (e.g., Tertullian, Peter of Alexandria, and Eusebius) and the remnants of his tomb have been found in Rome.
II. What was the attitude of the early Christians toward the ministry of the bishops of Rome, who claimed to carry on St. Peter's role.
Let us do an investigation, and pile up the evidence. Listen very carefully to each of the following four historical events – lets see what we can learn from them....
1. St. Clement was a pope near the end of the first century (d. ca. 96 A.D.). He had sat at the feet of the apostles in his youth, and according to one of his contemporaries, he "still had the apostles' teachings ringing in his ears".
•Clement received a letter from a church in Corinth, far away to the east in Greece. The letter informed him that the Corinthians had deposed (kicked-out!) their clergy.
•St. Clement responded: "Because of sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes [here in Rome] we think [pontifical "we"] our attention has been slow in turning to the things debated among you."
•St. Clement then reprimanded them for deposing their clergy and insisted, under penalty of sin, that they restore their clergy to their rightful places. He wrote, "If some are disobedient to the things [Jesus] has spoken through us, they should know that they are enmeshing themselves in sin, and in no small danger."
•In short, Pope St. Clement intervened i the affairs of faraway Corinth at his own initiative, and settled their dispute by the authority of the Church of Rome.
•In fact, his letter was held in such high esteem by the Corinthians that they were still reading it aloud in their church a generation later!
•St. Clement's pontificate was celebrated in the ancient liturgy of the Eastern Church by singing these words: "Peter, Prince of the Apostles, left thee [Clement] as worthy successor of himself; after him, thou didst rule the Church most capably."
•What does all this tell us about the attitude of the earliest Christians to the authority of the Bishop of Rome? (answer: that he has authority to intervene even in far away churches o settle divisive disputes).
2. St. Irenaeus of Lyons had learned the Catholic faith from St. Polycarp, a man who had known the apostle John personally. St. Irenaeus became bishop of Lyons, France, in the mid-2nd century A.D.
•In response to strange and secret doctrines put forward by some Christian fringe-groups, St. Irenaeus wrote these words:
We do put to confusion all those [heretics] by indicating that tradition [of doctrine] derived from the apostles of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul...for it is a matter of necessity that every church should agree with this church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful from everywhere...
•Later in the same book, St. Ireneus provides us with a list of the early popes, the Bishops of Rome, stretching right back to St. Peter himself, and he finishes by writing: "In this order, and by this succession...the tradition from the apostles and the truth has come down to us."
•What do these words imply about the attitude of 2nd century Christians to the authority of the Bishops of Rome? (answer:His office is descended from St. Peter; the Church of Rome and its bishops therefore have pre-eminent authority, and teach the truth from the apostles).
3. Pope St. Leo the Great (mid-5th century)
•In 451 A.D., the Church held a General Council of bishops at Chalcedon to settle a dispute that had arisen about belief in Christ i.e., is Jesus merely a inspired human being? Or solely a divine being? Or the divine Son of God, dwelling among us a human being?
•At tis time the whole western part of the Roman Empire lay in ruins due to the invasion of the barbarians, and even the city of Rome had been captured and sacked. The capital city of the Roman Empire had long since been moved to the East, to Constantinople, present day Istanbul.
•At this General Council in Chalcedon, 596 bishops attended from the eastern part of the Empire, but only four made it from the west, including the Pope's representatives, who read out a long letter from the Pope, firmly establishing that Jesus Christ is both fully human and fully divine. This is called "the Tome of Leo."
•After hearing the Tome, Bishop Peter of Corinth, who had been sitting among some bishops of a different opinion, crossed over to the hall to sit with the Pope's representatives; he was greeed with the shout "Peter thinks as does Peter – orthodox bishop welcome!"
•In the end, the bishops present embraced Pope St. Leo's teaching with the shout "Peter has spoken through Leo!" They composed a new "definition" (clarification) of faith that Jesus is fully human and fully divine, in conformity with the Pope's wishes.
•After the Council, the Patriarchs (archbishops) of Constantinople, Jerusalem, and Antioch wrote a letter to Pope St. Leo, calling him the "interpreter of the voice of Blessed Peter...the one commissioned with the guardianship of the vineyard by the Savior."
•The ancient Eastern liturgy, on the feast day of Pope St. Leo the Great, sings, "As the successor of the divine Peter, enriched with his presidency and primacy, Leo published his divinely inspired definition."
•What does this story tell you about the attitude of 5th century Christians to the role of the Bishop of Rome? (answer: that on matters of doctrine, he speaks with the authority of St. Peter, and protects the Church from false teaching).
4. Conflict with the Emperor. At the very end of the 5th century, the Byzantine Emperor (in Constantinople) tried to settle a theological controversy in the Church himself, by issuing an imperial edict requiring everyone in the Empire to accept his viewpoint.
•The Pope at the time would not stand for this, and he excommunicated the Byzantine Emperor, and all who supported him on this matter.
•Most of the bishops of the East (many of whom were appointees of the Emperor), whether out of fear or confusion, stood by the Emperor. As a result, the eastern and western portions of the Church were split from each other for about 30 years.
•In the end, however, the Emperor and the bishops gave in to papal demands and teaching authority. The bishops of the east signed a retraction of their rebellion, including these words,
"We cannot pass over in silence the affirmations of our Lord Jesus Christ, 'You are Peter, upon this Rock I will build my Church.' These words are verified by the facts. It is in the Apostolic See (the See of Rome) that the Catholic religion has always been preserved without blemish...This is why I hope that I shall remain in communion with the Apostolic See, in which is found the whole, true, and perfect stability of the Christian religion."
What does this incident tell you about the attitude of the Church's bishops in the early 6th century A.D. to the leadership role of the Pope? (answer: that his authority comes from Christ's promise to Peter, and makes the Pope an entirely reliable rock of "truth" and "stability" for the worldwide Church)
These examples could be multiplied...
Beyond any reasonable doubt, in the early Church the Bishop of Rome, the Pope was seen as and acted as the Church's Rock and leading Shepherd, the center of unity, truth, and stability for the world wide Church.
Is this not an answer to the prayer that Jesus prayed just before His arrest, agony, and passion?
Read together John 17:1-13. Why did He offer this prayer? (answer: "that they all may be one...").
Why did Jesus think it was so important that his followers be united in "love" and "truth"? (answer: that the world may believe...").
Teaching Note:
Have a large map of the Mediterranean area of the world on display during this lesson. Students should be familiar with the location of places such as Rome, Corinth, Jerusalem, Constantinople, Alexandria, Lyons, and other cities mentioned in this lesson – and with the geographical division between the Western and Byzantine Empires. Some familiarity with this geography is essential in order to understand the extraordinary reach of papal authority even in ancient times.
[1]If you read Acts 15, You'll see that it was James, The Pastor of the Church at Jerusalem who had the final word, And all the Apostle agreed with him.
Proving the Peter wasn't the chief shepherd, He had no authority over James.
[2]Peter wasn't a rock. WILL YOU STOP TELLING LIES.
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Cracks me up, you read through all the evidence of the early papal office and then quote Acts 15.
P.S. The article I quoted describes the actions between bishops and the papal office in Acts 15.
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quote:
Originally posted by God4me
Peter was never called a rock, STOP TELLING LIES.
Cephas/Kepha and Petros is a stone in the Aramaic, Greek and the Bible,
See Jn 1: 42.
SO STOP TELLINNG LIES.
you stop telling lies.. it means rock. not a big rock vs a small stone.. a stone is a rock... it is interchangeable and there is no way to get around this solid fact unless you are just trying to manipulate.
now the word lithos does mean a small rock or stone and look at this verse..Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
guess what word is used here? you got it lithos a small stone is used for christ.. so either size doesn't matter, as i said or it does and if it does then jesus is also considered a little stone like peter.
pquote]Abraham wasn't called, "Father", STOP TELLING LIES.
BOY, You are one of the biggest liars I have ever known.
Abraham was The,
"Father of many nations, Or the Father of Multitudes".
Not "THE FATHER".
i didn't say he was called the father, i said he was called father. i would assume that someone as well versed in sacred scripture as you would know that abraham is called father.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad
it is interesting that the jews didn't seem to confuse god the father with father abraham.. especially when god himself gave abraham the name. likewise catholics don't confuse Jesus the rock with peters being the rock, because jesus himself gave peter the name. the only ones that do think peter is a rock comparable to jesus are anti catholic ignoramuses like yourself. sorry that you cannot grasp truth g4.. but i think you intentionally misunderstand it.
quote:
Jesus never built His Church on Peter, Here's why,
For the Biblica, Aramaic and Greek truth, See this.
Peter is, "Cephas, Kepha", [A Stone] in Aramaic.
And the Rock Is, "Shu"a", [A masive rock] In Aramaic.
Two differnt words, Two different meanings..FACT.
jesus did and here is why.. the bible says so. the early church understood it this way, greek scholars agree, protestant scholars also agree. deal with it g4
quote:
Peter is, "Petros", [A stone that is easily moved or shaken]
In the Greek.
The Rock is "Petra", A solid foundation], In the Greek.
Two different words, Two different meanings,..FACT.
again jesus is referred to as a lithos which is a stone that is easily moved. anyway you need to be able to move a stone if you wish to build with it. but that is neither here nor there. your own logic proves you wrong again because you don't know what your talking about.
quote:
Peter, is the second person and plural in number.
The Rock is the 3rd person and singular in nimber.
Two different persons and numbers, Two different meanings,..FACT.
that makes no sense. there aren't two peters so it cannot be plural. it makes more sense that it is a masculine form of petra..
quote:
But you have to tell lies, In order to keep your erroneous doctrine that Jesus built His Church on Peter.
and here it is again. you cannot prove your case and you cannot disprove the truth so you accuse. your nothing but a big baby throwing a tantrum.. i would figure that someone empowered by the holy ghost like you would have better ability to preach the truth but as you cannot i will just acknowledge your complete lack of any holy spirit power behind you. 
quote:
Whereas the Bible, Aramaic and the Greek All prove that Jesus didn't build His Church on Peter...FACT
[/quote]
not a fact. it proves just the opposite. you can't handle the truth.
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God4Me, the Aramaic texts for Matthew do not use shua in Matthew 16, in both places, kepha is used.
You can imagine anything you like, but Jesus said Simon you are Kepha and upon this KEPHA (not shua), I will build my church.
Why do you feel so bloated in your authority that you can just swap out words in the Bible to make your tradition fit?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
God4Me, the Aramaic texts for Matthew do not use shua in Matthew 16, in both places, kepha is used.
You can imagine anything you like, but Jesus said Simon you are Kepha and upon this KEPHA (not shua), I will build my church.
Why do you feel so bloated in your authority that you can just swap out words in the Bible to make your tradition fit?
There you go again..TELLING LIES.
The Aramaic word for Peter is,Kepha ot Cephas, Which means a"Stone".
And the Aramaic word for Rock, is Shua, Which means a "masive rock".
Two different Aramaic words, two different meanings.
The Greek word for Peter, Is,
"Petros, A stone that is easily moved or shaken",
Didn't Peter prove it??.
The Greek word for "Rock", Is,
"Petra, A masive rock, a solid firm foundation".
Two different Greek words, Two different meanings.
The Bible, Aramaic and the Greek, All prove that Jesus never built His Church on Peter
I keep telling you the truth, But you keep telling lies.
Even if Jesus dod build His Church on Peter, What does that have to do with the catholics??.
They are not Jesus Church, There wern't formed by the devil until at least 300-600 years later.
So you tell a lot of lies for nothing.
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quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
Cracks me up, you read through all the evidence of the early papal office and then quote Acts 15.
P.S. The article I quoted describes the actions between bishops and the papal office in Acts 15.
Acts 15, Descibes the actions between the apostle and the Pastor.
STOP TELLING LIES.
You catholics are some of the biggest liars that I have ever known.
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Member since 03/06/2010
Location: United Kingdom
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
Peter was never called a rock, STOP TELLING LIES.
Cephas/Kepha and Petros is a stone in the Aramaic, Greek and the Bible,
See Jn 1: 42.
SO STOP TELLINNG LIES.
you stop telling lies.. it means rock. not a big rock vs a small stone.. a stone is a rock... it is interchangeable and there is no way to get around this solid fact unless you are just trying to manipulate.
now the word lithos does mean a small rock or stone and look at this verse..Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
guess what word is used here? you got it lithos a small stone is used for christ.. so either size doesn't matter, as i said or it does and if it does then jesus is also considered a little stone like peter.
pquote]Abraham wasn't called, "Father", STOP TELLING LIES.
BOY, You are one of the biggest liars I have ever known.
Abraham was The,
"Father of many nations, Or the Father of Multitudes".
Not "THE FATHER".
i didn't say he was called the father, i said he was called father. i would assume that someone as well versed in sacred scripture as you would know that abraham is called father.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad
it is interesting that the jews didn't seem to confuse god the father with father abraham.. especially when god himself gave abraham the name. likewise catholics don't confuse Jesus the rock with peters being the rock, because jesus himself gave peter the name. the only ones that do think peter is a rock comparable to jesus are anti catholic ignoramuses like yourself. sorry that you cannot grasp truth g4.. but i think you intentionally misunderstand it.
quote:
Jesus never built His Church on Peter, Here's why,
For the Biblica, Aramaic and Greek truth, See this.
Peter is, "Cephas, Kepha", [A Stone] in Aramaic.
And the Rock Is, "Shu"a", [A masive rock] In Aramaic.
Two differnt words, Two different meanings..FACT.
jesus did and here is why.. the bible says so. the early church understood it this way, greek scholars agree, protestant scholars also agree. deal with it g4
quote:
Peter is, "Petros", [A stone that is easily moved or shaken]
In the Greek.
The Rock is "Petra", A solid foundation], In the Greek.
Two different words, Two different meanings,..FACT.
again jesus is referred to as a lithos which is a stone that is easily moved. anyway you need to be able to move a stone if you wish to build with it. but that is neither here nor there. your own logic proves you wrong again because you don't know what your talking about.
quote:
Peter, is the second person and plural in number.
The Rock is the 3rd person and singular in nimber.
Two different persons and numbers, Two different meanings,..FACT.
that makes no sense. there aren't two peters so it cannot be plural. it makes more sense that it is a masculine form of petra..
quote:
But you have to tell lies, In order to keep your erroneous doctrine that Jesus built His Church on Peter.
and here it is again. you cannot prove your case and you cannot disprove the truth so you accuse. your nothing but a big baby throwing a tantrum.. i would figure that someone empowered by the holy ghost like you would have better ability to preach the truth but as you cannot i will just acknowledge your complete lack of any holy spirit power behind you.
quote:
Whereas the Bible, Aramaic and the Greek All prove that Jesus didn't build His Church on Peter...FACT
not a fact. it proves just the opposite. you can't handle the truth.
[1]"Lithos", Could also mean, A "Tombstone, a millstone"
Are you saying Jesus is a tombstone??.
Lithos isn't used for Peter,
The Greek word for "Stone", As In for Peter, is, "Petros",
The size of the stone used for Peter doesn't matter, What does matter is, Peter was a stone that was easily moved or shaken, And Jesus didn't build His Church on him.
Peter was NEVER a rock..STOP TELLING LIES.
[2]The Jews knew Abrahan was the Father of many nations, The Father of multitudes, That why thet Called him father, Not because they thought he was God.
The Full neame that God gave Abram, Was, Abraham,Meaning,
"The Father of many nations,/multitudes",
Abraham doesn't mean Just "Father".
[3]The Bible doesn't say Jesus built His Church on Peter..STOP TELLING LIES.
You say the Bible says so, But you don;t give scriptures to back it up.
Greek scolars don't say Jesus built His Church on Peter. STOP TELLING LIES.
LYING catholic sckolars might have said that, But we all know how the catholic tell lies.
[4]You said.
again jesus is referred to as a lithos which is a stone that is easily moved. anyway you need to be able to move a stone if you wish to build with it. but that is neither here nor there. your own logic proves you wrong again because you don't know what your talking about.
[End quote].
Now you are just being silly, twisting the Bible and telling lies.
Jesus nave used "Lithos" for Peter.
[5]You said,
quote:
that makes no sense. there aren't two peters so it cannot be plural. it makes more sense that it is a masculine form of petra..
[End quote].
You are showing your ignorance of te Greek.
[6]You said, I can't prove my case,
STOP TELLING LIES, If have given you, Biblical,Aramaic and Greek proof.
What you mean is, You will rather believe the pope's porkies then the Biblical truth..GET IT RIGHT.
[7]You said.
[Quote]
not a fact. it proves just the opposite. you can't handle the truth.
[End quote].
There you go again...TELLING LIES.
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Member since 06/26/2002
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
[1]"Lithos", Could also mean, A "Tombstone, a millstone"
Are you saying Jesus is a tombstone??.
nope. but this is a great example of why you are not equipped to teach anything g4. you are so dependent on trying to make wrong associations that your even trying to take the very point i made about you and twist that into something i never said. the word lithos is used for jesus. it means a small stone. you said that petros also means small stone.. and that jesus could only be a big rock. now your trying to assert jesus as being a millstone? its ridiculous how you twist and twirl to defend your undefendable claims.
quote:
Lithos isn't used for Peter,
The Greek word for "Stone", As In for Peter, is, "Petros",
The size of the stone used for Peter doesn't matter, What does matter is, Peter was a stone that was easily moved or shaken, And Jesus didn't build His Church on him.
Peter was NEVER a rock..STOP TELLING LIES.
never said lithos was used for peter. all a said was lithos means a small stone and since your claiming that petros means a small stone then either it doesn't change anything and your argument is dead or petros doesn't mean small stone and your argument is dead. it's a no win situation for you.
quote:
[2]The Jews knew Abrahan was the Father of many nations, The Father of multitudes, That why thet Called him father, Not because they thought he was God.
duh! so like i said he is called father. as i already pointed out the jews knew the difference between god the father and father being applied to abraham.. did you not read that or did you not know that until after i proved your claim wrong? either way don't repeat what i already told you as if your telling me..
quote:
The Full neame that God gave Abram, Was, Abraham,Meaning,
"The Father of many nations,/multitudes",
Abraham doesn't mean Just "Father".
never said it meant just father.. what i said is that he was called father.. stop trying to find ways to make me say what i didn't say.. he is called father several times, even by jesus.. father abraham.. it was a name change given by god that identified abraham with an aspect of god and the whold jewish nation was built on that one man and his successors.
quote:
[3]The Bible doesn't say Jesus built His Church on Peter..STOP TELLING LIES.
You say the Bible says so, But you don;t give scriptures to back it up.
Greek scolars don't say Jesus built His Church on Peter. STOP TELLING LIES.
LYING catholic sckolars might have said that, But we all know how the catholic tell lies.
it does say so, it then goes on to show so.. the greek scholars do say that and even protestant scholars tell the truth on this g4. your anti catholic idiots are wrong.
quote:
Now you are just being silly, twisting the Bible and telling lies.
Jesus nave used "Lithos" for Peter.
again, i never made that claim. maybe you should go back to the 3rd grade and try to gain some reading comprehension?
quote:
[5]You said,
quote:
that makes no sense. there aren't two peters so it cannot be plural. it makes more sense that it is a masculine form of petra..
[End quote].
You are showing your ignorance of te Greek.
nope. you are.
quote:
[6]You said, I can't prove my case,
STOP TELLING LIES, If have given you, Biblical,Aramaic and Greek proof.
What you mean is, You will rather believe the pope's porkies then the Biblical truth..GET IT RIGHT.
no.. i just don't believe your porkies g4. i know that makes you all kind of mad but in reality its not that hard to do. after all your pretty dumb.. you haven't given proof. only assertions which you haven't backed up. the catholics here have backed up their claims and you have only tried to twist them to sound like something else but i doubt anyone is fooled...
quote:
[7]You said.
[Quote]
not a fact. it proves just the opposite. you can't handle the truth.
[End quote].
There you go again...TELLING LIES.
i don't lie.. your claim that i do is a lie.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
G4, the Aramaic texts say that Jesus will build His church on this KEPHA, that is the word that is used.
Whether you think it is a big rock or a little rock, the word is still kepha, and this word normally translates as petra in Greek.
And it does not matter what shua means, because that word was not used in that passage. Jesus did not say he would build his church on any shua. The word does not appear in the Aramaic text.
What you don't understand is that while the texts did get transtated into many languages over time as the Church grew, the local churches that began in the middle east continued to use Aramaic as their language of worship. There are ancient Christian churches that to this day still worship in Aramaic using Aramaic scriptures.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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