Peter petra petros kepha
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If you want some seriously good, "non-partisan" linguistic research info on the Peter-petros-petra-kepha thing, you need to check out http://www.freetowne.com/pppkThe site just gives some pretty in-depth info, and actually gives source info and reference material, etc... more...
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quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Originally posted by ftbond
Guys, there is NOT a Hebrew word "keph"...
Did a quick search to see what is available:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_of_Jesus
Aramaic phrases in the Greek New Testament
quote:
Cephas (??fa?)John 1:42
He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon son of John, you shall be called Cephas", which is translated 'Peter'. (New International Version)
1 Corinthians 1:12
But I say that each of you says "I am of Paul", or "I am of Apollos", or "I am of Cephas", or "I am of Christ".
Galatians 1:18 NRSV
Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him for fifteen days;
In these passages, 'Cephas' is given as the nickname of the apostle better known as Simon Peter.
The Greek word is transliterated ??f?? (Kephâs).
The apostle's given name appears to be Simon, and he is given the Aramaic nickname, kêfâ, meaning 'rock' or 'stone'.
The final sigma (s) is added in Greek to make the name masculine rather than feminine.
That the meaning of the name was more important than the name itself is evidenced by the universal acceptance of the Greek translation, ??t??? (Petros).
It is not known why Paul uses the Aramaic name rather than the Greek name for Simon Peter when he writes to the churches in Galatia and Corinth.[34]
He may have been writing at a time before Cephas came to be popularly known as Peter.
According to Clement of Alexandria, there were two people named Cephas: one was Apostle Simon Peter, and the other was one of Jesus' Seventy Apostles.[35]
Clement goes further to say it was Cephas of the Seventy who was condemned by Paul in Galatians 2 for not eating with the Gentiles, though this is perhaps Clement's way of deflecting the condemnation from Simon Peter.
In any case the relationship of Paul of Tarsus and Judaism (which this involves) is still disputed.
In Aramaic, it could be ????.
This same article explains:
quote:
It is generally agreed that the historical Jesus primarily spoke Aramaic,[1] perhaps along with some Hebrew and Greek (although there is some debate as to the degree[2]).
The towns of Nazareth and Capernaum in Galilee, where Jesus lived, were primarily Aramaic-speaking communities, although Greek was widely spoken in the major cities of the Eastern Mediterranean such as Antioch and Alexandria.
Jesus may have also known enough Hebrew to discuss the Hebrew Bible, and he may have known Koine Greek through commerce in nearby Sepphoris.
Aramaic, as a Semitic language, was a common language of the Eastern Mediterranean during and after the Neo-Assyrian, Neo-Babylonian, and Achaemenid Empires (722 BC – 330 BC).
Aramaic remained a common language of the region in the 1st century AD, despite the subsequent Macedonian-Greek (331 BC) and Roman (63 BC) invasions.
Indeed, in spite of the increasing importance of Greek, the use of Aramaic was also expanding, and it would eventually be entirely dominant among Jews both in the Holy Land and elsewhere in the Middle East around 200 AD;[3] it would remain so until the Arab conquest in the 7th century.
Jesus and his disciples spoke a Galilean dialect clearly distinguishable from that of Jerusalem (see Jewish Palestinian Aramaic).[4][5]
To give some perspective, in the same time period, the Mishnah was recorded in Hebrew, Josephus wrote in Aramaic,[6] and Philo and Paul of Tarsus wrote in Greek.[7][
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_of_Jesus
HEY, "bwellmysoyul", Your soul will never be well as long as you tell lies, Nowhere does, Kepha/cephas or Peter mean a,"Rock".
It means a "Stone"
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It can mean either/or, but whatever it is, Jesus built His Church on it.
"You are kepha and upon this kepha I will build my church"
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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quote:
Originally posted by God4me
HEY, "bwellmysoyul", Your soul will never be well as long as you tell lies, Nowhere does, Kepha/cephas or Peter mean a,"Rock".
It means a "Stone"
Jesus said He was the "stumbling stone the builders forgot".
By your definition, Jesus was a "small moveable pebble".
Interesting, how large a "stone" the Greek feminine Petra is:
quote:
http://www.aquiziam.com/petra_story.html
It is believed that the ancient, mysterious and hauntingly beautiful site of Petra in Jordan has been inhabited (in one way or another) for approximately 9000 years although its existence was kept secret from the modern West until 1812, when Swiss explorer Johann Ludwig Burckhardt “rediscovered it” and revealed its magnificence to the world.
Petra - Jordan was designated a World Heritage Site in 1985 and it has been described as “One of the most precious cultural properties of man's cultural heritage”, by UNESCO.
In Arab tradition, Petra is the place where Moses struck a rock with his staff and water came forth, and where his sister, Miriam, is buried.
The word Petra (as with Peter) means “rock” and is derived from the Greek and Arabic language. It is a wonderfully appropriate name as this ancient city is literally carved from the rose-red sandstone hills and outcrops.
Edited by bwellmysoul on 05/23/2012 06:57:08
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Anyone know how to post a photo of the size of the feminine Petra?
That small feminine "stone" in Jordan.
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
It can mean either/or, but whatever it is, Jesus built His Church on it.
"You are kepha and upon this kepha I will build my church"
There you go again..TELLING LIES.
You catholics are the biggest liar's that I know.
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quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
HEY, "bwellmysoyul", Your soul will never be well as long as you tell lies, Nowhere does, Kepha/cephas or Peter mean a,"Rock".
It means a "Stone"
Jesus said He was the "stumbling stone the builders forgot".
By your definition, Jesus was a "small moveable pebble".
Interesting, how large a "stone" the Greek feminine Petra is:
quote:
http://www.aquiziam.com/petra_story.html
It is believed that the ancient, mysterious and hauntingly beautiful site of Petra in Jordan has been inhabited (in one way or another) for approximately 9000 years although its existence was kept secret from the modern West until 1812, when Swiss explorer Johann Ludwig Burckhardt “rediscovered it” and revealed its magnificence to the world.
Petra - Jordan was designated a World Heritage Site in 1985 and it has been described as “One of the most precious cultural properties of man's cultural heritage”, by UNESCO.
In Arab tradition, Petra is the place where Moses struck a rock with his staff and water came forth, and where his sister, Miriam, is buried.
The word Petra (as with Peter) means “rock” and is derived from the Greek and Arabic language. It is a wonderfully appropriate name as this ancient city is literally carved from the rose-red sandstone hills and outcrops.
You are just as bad as missed heaven mike, He twists the meaning as well.
I can tell you are from the same camp.
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G4Me,
You twist the meaning of Sacred Scripture so that you can reinforce your anti-Catholic bigotry and prejudice.
quote:
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Edited by bwellmysoul on 05/23/2012 07:51:21
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Dang!
Check out this "stone" walkway through that delicate small little "easily movable" itty bitty city of Petra.
http://www.aquiziam.com/pictures/petra_bab_el_Siq_large.jpg
What on earth! The people are itty bitty and the feminine "stones" are enormous.
Edited by bwellmysoul on 05/23/2012 09:07:51
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Now, which is G4Me?
Were the Greeks "telling lies" about how the feminine usage of the word Petra could apply to very very large foundation stones?
Or are you attempting to push your preconceptions and prejudices about the Greek language into a realm of physical and intellectual history that never applied to them?
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quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
G4Me,
You twist the meaning of Sacred Scripture so that you can reinforce your anti-Catholic bigotry and prejudice.
quote:
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
It is the catholics who misquote Matt 16: 18-19. REMEMBER.
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quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
Wow, that teeny tiny feminine "stone" just keeps going and going and going....
Page 2 of the images of Petra
http://www.aquiziam.com/petra_images2.html
Your getting Petra mixed up with Petros.
Petra is a masive rock, Petros is a stone.
Petra is the 3rd person and singular in number.
Petros is the 2nd person and plural in number.
Two different Greek words, Two different meanings,
Two different persons & numbers, Two different meanings.
So, You can see it is imposible for Jesus to have built His Church on Peter..FACT.
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quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
Here is more proof that Petra and Petros aren't the same meaning.
In the Greek, The persons' and numbers have to agree.
And Peter, "Petros", Is the 2nd person and plural in number.
The "Rock That Jesus built His Church on", Is.
"Petra", The 3rd person, singular in number.
So, You can see that Petra doen't agree with Petros.
Here again is our resident greek scholar and doctor of theology claiming nouns convey person independent of the address and that “You are Peter” is somehow plural and that indirect address is equivalent to third person.
Three basic grammar errors that have nothing to do with theology.
G4, Do you understand what makes an address first, second or third person?
Do you understand that “You are Peter” is not plural? If you persist in stating this, you must not even know the difference between singular and plural. How many You’s and Peter’s is Jesus addressing?
If the English translation isn’t clear enough for you, look at the Greek text. Every one of these words is singular (You are Peter). It doesn’t say “you all are pebbles”
My kids learned the difference no later than second grade.
But when you are perfect and beyond correction, 1 + 1 = anything you say it does.
For your information,
“You are Peter/Petros” is second person singular.
“And on this petra” is indirect address (not the same as third person) and singular.
So the rule (which you don’t know how to properly apply anyway) doesn’t even have a starting point.
There is nothing to debate here. Sorry doctor, but you are just flat out wrong on the grammar fundamentals on a level that is frankly embarrassing. Yet you persist????
You are either showing your ignorance about the Greek, Or you are just down right dishonest.
Either way, I wouldn't post any more if I was you,
To save anymore embarisment.
If you can't even acknowledge your basic grammar problems, you have a serious issue with pride and honesty that you apparently are not able to overcome. Your solution is to basically tell everyone to shut up and your all going to hell......
Let's just cut to the chase and please answer these questions for everyone to see.
Does a noun by itself convey person?
You have made the claim that nouns do convey person.
Is "You are petros" singular or plural?
You have claimed that it is plural.
Does indirect address equate to third person address?
You have claimed that it does.
Please just answer these simple yes/no questions about basic grammar.
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