What is Historic truth how Protestant's started?
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Can we get some one that really studied why the Reformation really started and was there killings by the church before this? My reason is no one should kill anyone just because they are not part of the church. I see it as if they were not part then it is their own choosing and if it leaves them without and help or food or drinks would it be right or wrong to help them? Or kill them?? What is Heresy? By the way, only when your in the Mafia do they kill you for trying to get away from them:(
baby3
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Reformation occurred when some priests saw that the Catholic system went on the wrong path (unbiblical teachings, sacraments, corruption). Hence (Martin Luther) have called a reformation, he listed the things that are flawed in the Catholic system. He believed that the early church steered away from basic doctrines of the bible and it's truths, after him many others followed.
During the reformation period many people picked up the Bible and read it, that action threatened the Catholic Church. Because the truth is in the Bible, it's teachings and it's doctrines. Many people became protestants but they died and were prosecuted. It's sad that people had to die, just because they wanted to have the Bible as their source of truth and authority over a governing corrupt system in the early church.
*Pthere have been traditions made by man that were added in the Catholic belief,the same as rituals, sacraments. Veneration of saints and adoration of Mary that were not taught by any of Jesus nor his apostles and disciples. *
The reformist believed that the bible should be the sole authority and people should stay away from making it's own new doctrines and laws because it steered away from the teachings of Christ Jesus. The early church cannot be questioned in regards to their authority or their dogmas hence you will become an anathema (outcast) worse put in burning fire in front of the town crowd. So it will be an example to everyone and to those who question the Catholic Church and or its teachings.
I recommend that you pick up your Bible. I'm in Australia right now and I heard that in California They started banning bible study groups at home. One day the Bible will be the most precious book ever to exist in the planet because our leaders will try to suppress it. Scary times, we are indeed in near the last days.
Before you pick up your Bible, pray to God through Jesus. John 14:6 "Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me"
You cannot go to God though the saints because only Jesus can. You can't go to God through Mary because only Jesus can, clearly as he stated. Now I know Catholics believe this statement " you can go to Jesus through Mary" be very careful with this belief as this teaching is not biblicaly true, it is also not found in the scriptures nor it was prophesied by any prophet, disciples, apostles not even our Lord Jesus Christ. ( FACT: the Bible is THE only book that contains 30% of prophesy being fullfilled and no other religious books have this amazing accuracy)
There is not one prophesy that that the mother of our Lord will be the mediator to our Lord, the same with the saints.
Jesus prophesy that many will come in his name and teach false teachings. Many will be deceived. Satan will do anything to capture your soul, he can disguise as an angel, he can also do healing and false miracles, Oh yes he can do that too. Hence he is called the father of Lies.
God Bless you!
God Loves you !
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It is easy to say we should never kill anyone when we live in the 21st century at a time when we have highly structured police forces and military units.
In ancient times it was not that simple.
When God said an "eye for an eye" and a "tooth for a tooth" in the OT, many people in the 21st century shudder and say "bad God, bad Religion". What they don't realize is that back then if one person injured another person, the injured person's family or tribe would come back and wipe out the other person and their family and tribe.
The "eye for an eye" rule was God instituting fairness in an unfair and very violent world.
God wiped out Sodom and Gommorrah to keep their way of life from spreading. They did wicked.
God flooded the earth for the same reason. In both cases, saving the just to bring the world to a better state of being.
Back then violence and sin were part of the human condition and it took time for us to mature.
In the first few centuries of Christianity, Christians never killed anyone for not believing the same way. Even after Christianity was legalized, it was the secular governments that executed people - in the beginning, the Romans sought unity through the Christian Church, and when they saw signs of disunity, they squashed them.
Later, other governments also sought to control the masses through religion and did impose their own judgments on heretics.
But, yes, the Catholic Church did have inquisitions and were responsible for some of the executions, but consider this - during the time of the inquisitions (which were largely secular and many actually boring matters of law and not near as exciting as many would want to believe), the Church introduced rules of evidence and fair trials. It was far preferable to be tried under a Church tribunal than a secular tribunal. Most preferred it.
During the most infamous period of the Inquisitions, the Spanish Inquisition was the most fearsome. This was done by the Spanish government, not the Church. And while the Church had initially given approval based on limited information, they eventually shut down the Inquisitions in Spain because of their brutality and unfairness.
The King of Spain felt that he was better than the Pope to govern his subjects in religious matters. He thought that the Pope was too soft and imposed his own religious rules on the population. This was often the case even during Reformation.
The Reformation was violent, but not because of the Church. Each nation had its own government and that government (king, regent, whatever) imposed the religion of its leader on the population and enforced it.
Most "Protestants" never got to choose their religion. Most did not actually protest anything. They didn't have a choice. If they resisted, they could be executed.
Some of the Reformers took advantage of this power. If they could convince a king to leave the Catholic Church and accept their own teachings, then they would have many instant "converts" and the means to spread their beliefs. Many kings were all too willing because if they separated from the Catholic Church, all the Church's property was up for grabs and many could become rich off the people.
And yes, it was off the people. The Church lands and buildings were there to serve the people of God, not the Pope.
And some took the power to extremes. John Calvin personnally burned his best friend at the stake for disagreeing with him on a theological point. That's cold (or hot as the case may be). Very nasty.
In the Catholic Church, there was a fair amount of latitude for study. People were not automatically condemned for heresy. And in the universities, many scholars pushed the boundaries without any serious penalty.
Part of the reason why the Reformation was even possible was because the Church was not the horrible monster that many painted it to be in revisionist history - Luther and others were able to develop their ideas in a very open learning environment. They had access to the Biblical texts, that is how they were able to produce their own versions of the Bible.
Think about it - how could Wycliff or Tyndale have transtated a Bible they didn't have access to? Same with Luther. And what of modern claims about giving the Bible to the people? There were 14 authorized versions of the Bible in German when Luther produced his German translation, and the earliest English translations of at least portions of the Bible predate Wycliff and Tyndale by centuries.
The Catholic Church is not responsible for anywhere near as many deaths as have been attributed to her. The Church has been guided by God who knows human beings and works within our limits.
Sorry, that was a bit rambling. I will see about a more direct approach to the Reformation itself a little later. I just wanted to get a jump in on all the surplus stuff that always gets raised.
The reasons for the Reformation were actually very simple, and were resolved with the Council of Trent which resolved all the original issues.
Of course, by that time, the Reformation had already mutated from its original purpose and would continue to spiral out of control as politics and greed took over.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Very good Faith but when I was in the Baptist church I remember they said that most of them just got out with their lives and couldn't get all the bible when they left in a hurry after the Arch Bishop of Canterbury was murdered at the alter for trying to help them print the bible.He helped them move the printing plates but the church found out and had him done in.To me it seems that most churches have their own story and none of it pans out for me as they are all covering up what they don't want us to know. Incidentally why was the Pope so upset about his butler of many years giving some letters and doctrines to the Italians? He was very grieved about this. Do you know anything about this?
baby3
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quote:
Originally posted by baby3
Can we get some one that really studied why the Reformation really started and was there killings by the church before this? My reason is no one should kill anyone just because they are not part of the church. I see it as if they were not part then it is their own choosing and if it leaves them without and help or food or drinks would it be right or wrong to help them? Or kill them?? What is Heresy? By the way, only when your in the Mafia do they kill you for trying to get away from them:(
The catholics killed the Bible believing Bible preaching believers, Because the Bible was chalenging the catholics authority.
One of the catholic pope's give arms and weapons to an army that was fight against God's people[The Jews].
catholic were started by the devil and continued by the devil.
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Originally posted by baby3
Very good Faith but when I was in the Baptist church I remember they said that most of them just got out with their lives and couldn't get all the bible when they left in a hurry after the Arch Bishop of Canterbury was murdered at the alter for trying to help them print the bible.He helped them move the printing plates but the church found out and had him done in.To me it seems that most churches have their own story and none of it pans out for me as they are all covering up what they don't want us to know. Incidentally why was the Pope so upset about his butler of many years giving some letters and doctrines to the Italians? He was very grieved about this. Do you know anything about this?
The catholics kept the Bible in Latin so no one could understand it, And the people had to accept what the evil catholics told them.
Then when Christians translated the scriptures into a language that people could read and understand, The catholic killed them because the Bible was a threat to their authority and doctrines.
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baby, if you can find a book called how the reformation happened by hilaire belloc, i would suggest reading that. he does a great job of explaining the political and religious climate that stood behind the reformation. he tells the good and the bad on the catholics and on the prots as well. something most prots try to leave out when they make up their myths about the "evil" catholic church.
g4.. your ignorance is only surpassed by your hatred for gods church. what can i say? the bible wasn't 'kept in latin'. there are several vernacular segments of scripture and the catholics finished an authorized version of english scriptures before the kjb.. the bigger problem is that latin was still the language everyone knew. there was a time when england spoke french etc, today people whine about english translations like the gender neutral bible or the ebonics bible, all the while blabbing about the catholic stance on biblical integrity. i suggest before you try that old cannard about "keeping the bible in latin" that you do your homework. anyway what does it matter to someone that babbles? we speak in tongues ;like latin, you babble so no one can understand... ha ha. your babble sect cannot even understand itself and tries to make the words of god a secret... baloney.
now..the catholics didn't kill people for translating the bible. that is false. it didn't even pose a threat to their authority g4.. rather it was heresy which was attacked. and for the same reason they allowed the civil authorities to take arms against islam they let them take arms agaisnt those other trouble makers. just look what happened when the reformation did occur. you have no concept of what the reformation was about except how you think it supports your sect. it doesn't. the reformation wasn't the destruction of the church. it was more the destruction of european unity. political leaders used religion to gain control and the religious were only too willing to let them. their churches were robbed (they called it iconoclasm) and somebody got rich from the plunder, but it wasn't the people. oh yeah. the reformation was really just a means to break with religious authority and the empire and they replaced these with a different religious authority and a different empire. what is neat is that places like ireland and poland stood up to the aggressive protestants and their attemps at control and survived. had the english people stood their ground or the germans stood their ground they may have survived too. people talk about the prots and catholics in ireland and never grasp that the catholics just want the freedom of their religion and not the state enforced version.
the reason i left the pentacostal sects was because i wanted true reform.. and found that the ancient church was still alive and well. i couldn't stand the abuse and hatred, and manipulation such as we see even in your posts here g4. what is christlike about that? your a pastor and you damn people to hell and call them liars, and then cry because catholic people stood up to your type and said NO! during the reformation?
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Originally posted by mikejuli
baby, if you can find a book called how the reformation happened by hilaire belloc, i would suggest reading that. he does a great job of explaining the political and religious climate that stood behind the reformation. he tells the good and the bad on the catholics and on the prots as well. something most prots try to leave out when they make up their myths about the "evil" catholic church.
g4.. your ignorance is only surpassed by your hatred for gods church. what can i say? the bible wasn't 'kept in latin'. there are several vernacular segments of scripture and the catholics finished an authorized version of english scriptures before the kjb.. the bigger problem is that latin was still the language everyone knew. there was a time when england spoke french etc, today people whine about english translations like the gender neutral bible or the ebonics bible, all the while blabbing about the catholic stance on biblical integrity. i suggest before you try that old cannard about "keeping the bible in latin" that you do your homework. anyway what does it matter to someone that babbles? we speak in tongues ;like latin, you babble so no one can understand... ha ha. your babble sect cannot even understand itself and tries to make the words of god a secret... baloney.
now..the catholics didn't kill people for translating the bible. that is false. it didn't even pose a threat to their authority g4.. rather it was heresy which was attacked. and for the same reason they allowed the civil authorities to take arms against islam they let them take arms agaisnt those other trouble makers. just look what happened when the reformation did occur. you have no concept of what the reformation was about except how you think it supports your sect. it doesn't. the reformation wasn't the destruction of the church. it was more the destruction of european unity. political leaders used religion to gain control and the religious were only too willing to let them. their churches were robbed (they called it iconoclasm) and somebody got rich from the plunder, but it wasn't the people. oh yeah. the reformation was really just a means to break with religious authority and the empire and they replaced these with a different religious authority and a different empire. what is neat is that places like ireland and poland stood up to the aggressive protestants and their attemps at control and survived. had the english people stood their ground or the germans stood their ground they may have survived too. people talk about the prots and catholics in ireland and never grasp that the catholics just want the freedom of their religion and not the state enforced version.
the reason i left the pentacostal sects was because i wanted true reform.. and found that the ancient church was still alive and well. i couldn't stand the abuse and hatred, and manipulation such as we see even in your posts here g4. what is christlike about that? your a pastor and you damn people to hell and call them liars, and then cry because catholic people stood up to your type and said NO! during the reformation?
There you go again..TELLING LIES.
Why do you always defend the evil catholicchurch with your lies??.
The catholic church isn't God's Church, It was formed by the devil at least 300-600 year after Jesus built His TRUE Church.
The Holy Spirit gave the reformers the revelation of the Biblical truth and came out of the evil catholic church, Then because thet were a fret to the catholics authority, They catholics killed them..FACT.
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quote:
Then when Christians translated the scriptures into a language that people could read and understand, The catholic killed them because the Bible was a threat to their authority and doctrines.
Quit the propaganda. You couldn't read and understand a Bazooka Joe comic from a bubblegum wrapper, much less, the Bible in any language. I believe parents should show their kids your posts as an example of why they should stay in school and away from drugs.
"Be good, keep your feet dry, your eyes open, your heart at peace and your soul in the joy of Christ." - Thomas Merton
www.percalamus.com
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quote:
Originally posted by baby3
Very good Faith but when I was in the Baptist church I remember they said that most of them just got out with their lives and couldn't get all the bible when they left in a hurry after the Arch Bishop of Canterbury was murdered at the alter for trying to help them print the bible.He helped them move the printing plates but the church found out and had him done in.To me it seems that most churches have their own story and none of it pans out for me as they are all covering up what they don't want us to know. Incidentally why was the Pope so upset about his butler of many years giving some letters and doctrines to the Italians? He was very grieved about this. Do you know anything about this?
A little off topic, but in a way relevant - the reason the Pope got mad at his butler is a matter of principle. If you had a butler in your home (I know, I don't have one either), but if you did and your butler was privy to all your family information, correspondence, visitors ectetera. Would you not be upset with him for telling your neighbour about your internal affairs, no matter how trivial?
A butler is in a position of trust. A letter sent between two people should not be copied and send to a journalist without the consent of the two people involved. This was Vatican business not Italian business. The Vatican needs to be able to conduct its affairs without worrying about misinformation or documents taken out of context being spread all over the front page.
The Butler had no business doing what he did.
If Pepsi Co. had an internal problem that needed to be dealt with, such as an employee or department embezzling funds from Pepsi, Pepsi should have the opportunity to settle the matter internally and if necessary putting it before the courts - but if an employee of Pepsi Co. were to leak related memos or letters to the public, that would hurt Pepsi Co. and force them to make announcements and otherwise waste time dealing with what should have been handled by Pepsi Co. without unnecessarily scaring shareholders or other affected stakeholders in the company.
Similarly, a Private in the US military leaked large amounts of files to Wikileaks a few years back. It does not matter what was in those files. The Private carried out an act of TREASON against his own government for personal gain. It does not matter if he thought the world ought to know. He was employed in a position of trust and he violated that trust.
The private should be executed for his crime (I hope that he isn't, but that is a penalty for treason), and the butler should be fired, and perhaps even jailed or fined if he violated any confidentiality agreements.
There are reasons to go public with secret information. Whistle blowers have to weigh carefully why they are doing this and what they hope to accomplish. But 15 minutes of fame, or seeking to damage a reputation is not a good thing.
I have heard of the story, and read some of it, but I don't know all the details. But violating the privacy of an employer is never good unless there is an exceptional reason that cannot be accomplished in any other way.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Originally posted by God4me
There you go again..TELLING LIES.
Why do you always defend the evil catholicchurch with your lies??.
false accusation. next.
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The catholic church isn't God's Church, It was formed by the devil at least 300-600 year after Jesus built His TRUE Church.
poor historical knowledge and clear ignorance of facts.. next.
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The Holy Spirit gave the reformers the revelation of the Biblical truth and came out of the evil catholic church, Then because thet were a fret to the catholics authority, They catholics killed them..FACT.
again poor knowledge of history as grossly biased. probably because you only read anti catholic propaganda. but further, you aren't even a lutheran or a calvanist or an anglican.. so even you think the reformers were wrong.. if you think they were led by the HS then why aren't you a lutheran????? your not because you don't believe your own rhetoric. next.
oh thats it..? well as everyone can see, g4 once again hasn't got a leg to stand on so i'll do another shameless plug for my blog..
http://minmaxsunt.wordpress.com/2012/05/27/pentecost/
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Yeah Faith I understand, and it should have never happened.I don't know what he wanted that was so important that the Vatican has him behind their bars right now. But if it was against the state it would be different? It is almomst as if the Vatican is it's own country, and Rome is it's own country how come?Are the any part of Rome? Are they hated by Rome to?
baby3
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The Vatican is a separate entity from Italy. It is an independent, sovereign City-State within Italy and not under Italian rule. This was established I think in 1929.
They are not hated by Rome or Italy, just independent of them.
The Vatican is under God, but when humans are involved, human failings get in the way. It is an internal power struggle that is being sorted out. They can play all the games they want. In the end Jesus is in control. The fact that Cardinal Ratzinger became Pope is proof of that to me.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Why is this Faith? Why because he became Pope?
baby3
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Because there was a push to modernize the Vatican by electing a Pope that might radically change the Church to suit the times instead of standing fast in our traditions.
Pope Benedict even from his days as a priest was a solid representative of the Catholic Faith and always put Christ first ahead of popularity. He has always stood for Christ instead of the world.
It isn't as simple as saying that it was because he was elected as bad popes have been elected. But the timing was so perfect.
Cardinal Ratzinger was St. Paul to Pope John Paul II as St. Peter. Now now he has beome Pope at a time in history when now more than ever we need a strong pope and not one that will chase every wind of doctrine.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
quote:
Then when Christians translated the scriptures into a language that people could read and understand, The catholic killed them because the Bible was a threat to their authority and doctrines.
Quit the propaganda. You couldn't read and understand a Bazooka Joe comic from a bubblegum wrapper, much less, the Bible in any language. I believe parents should show their kids your posts as an example of why they should stay in school and away from drugs.
YEH, The kids will believe my post, Unlike you unbelieving catholics.
Why do you think the catholic councils had to add new false doctrines??.
The answear is, Because they don't believe the Bible.
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