Who are the Seven churches in Revelations?
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OK If revelations is for the latter days like most people think then who are these churches today and what one is your church? There are seven spirits that go to thee churches and Jesus is telling the story of what he finds in these churches he does not like if anyone can find this out the are truly smart and I will listen to them but the proof must be there.Surely someone must know there are allot of very smart people here anyone want to hit on this?? B3
baby3
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These churches are not modern day churches. They may be archetypes, but not literal churches.
One of the most interesting explanations for the seven churches was from Dr. Scott Hahn who figured that they were actually representative of the different stages throughout the OT, with the charges/descriptions leveled at each church showing the situation that existed during that era - the sins of the people at that time.
I am not sure where I can find that information, but I will see if I can remember - he laid it out so perfectly that it all made sense.
The past is key to understanding the present and the future.
Apocalyptic writing style worked by drawing from the past to make familar what was being discussed in the present and even what was coming.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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quote:
Messages for seven churches of Asia
Ephesus:
From this church, those "who overcome are granted to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." (2:1-7)
Praised for not bearing those who are evil, testing those who say they are apostles and are not, and finding them to be liars; hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans; having persevered and possessing patience.
Admonished to "do the first works" and to repent for having left their "first love."
Smyrna:
From this church, those who are faithful until death, will be given "the crown of life." Those who overcome shall not be hurt by the second death. (2:8-11)
Praised for being "rich" while impoverished and in tribulation.
Admonished not to fear the "synagogue of Satan," nor fear a ten-day tribulation of being thrown into prison.
Pergamon:
From this church, those who overcome will be given the hidden manna to eat and a white stone with a secret name on it." (2:12-17)
Praised for holding "fast to My name," not denying "My faith" even in the days of Antipas, "My faithful martyr."
Admonished to repent for having held the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel; eating things sacrificed to idols, committing sexual immorality, and holding the "doctrine of the Nicolaitans."
Thyatira:
From this church, those who overcome until the end, will be given power over the nations in order to dash them to pieces with the rule of a rod of iron; they will also be given the "morning star." (2:18-29)
Praised for their works, love, service, faith, and patience.
Admonished to repent for allowing a "prophetess" to promote sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols.
Sardis:
From this church, those who overcome will be clothed in white garments, and their names will not be blotted out from the Book of Life; their names will also be confessed before the Father and His angels. (3:1-6)
Admonished to be watchful and to strengthen since their works haven't been perfect before God.
Philadelphia:
From this church, those who overcome will be made a pillar in the temple of God having the name of God, the name of the city of God, "New Jerusalem," and the Son of God's new name. (3:7-13)
Praised for having some strength, keeping "My word," and having not denied "My name."
Admonished to hold fast what they have, that no one may take their crown.
Laodicea:
From this church, those who overcome will be granted the opportunity to sit with the Son of God on His throne. (3:14-22)
Admonished to be zealous and repent from being "lukewarm"; they are instructed to buy the "gold refined in the fire," that they may be rich; to buy "white garments," that they may be clothed, so that the shame of their nakedness would not be revealed; to anoint their eyes with eye salve, that they may see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation
Edited by bwellmysoul on 06/01/2012 06:23:28
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The important thing is to not fall into the traps that any members of those churches fell into, and the positive behaviours are good to emulate.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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I think it's important when reading Acts & Letters & Revelation to remember that Christianity was illegal both in the eyes of the Jews and of the Romans.
Various degrees and strengths of persecution existed throughout the Mediterranian region where the Apostles and their disciples were taking Christ.
St. Paul wrote in Romans 'offer up your body as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God' in awareness that martyrdom was eventual.
He himself came to Christianity as having once been a persecutor of Christ's Church.
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PM
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Absolutely. We take so much for granted today. St. Paul shared the guilt for the execution of St. Stephen, holding the coats of those who did the stoning. He knew all too well what was happening and what was yet to come as he fought for his own life in preparation for his own martyrdom.
During the first century all but one of the Apostles were martyred and so too were many of their followers.
It is sad too that many Protestants have never read the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament. The Hall of Faith discourse in Hebrews 11 includes the Maccabbean martyrs, but without the Book that explained exactly what happened and why the message in Hebrews is lost.
Every single example from the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11 is found in the Catholic OT, but not all examples are found in the Protestant Ot. The author of Hebrews presumed a level of knowledge that most Protestants just do not have and cannot obtain from their shortened canon.
Today we have so many living in blind hope that the Rapture will snatch them up before their faith is truly tested by tribulation. But Christ prayed that we would not be taken up but instead be given the strength to endure.
Christians have faced persecution and martyrdom from the beginning, and this has persisted even through the many centuries since then. Today, Christians are the most persecuted group on the planet.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Wow this is very exciting and I have never thought of it in this manner. Listen when I was going to the Baptist church they said that revelations has not happened yet and that all this would happen before the coming of Our Lord and until this all happens he will not return.I once believed in the Rapture until I was praying one day and reading the bible and saw that verse that contradicts them and what they believe All those who endure till the end will be saved!!!!I never herd of the Hall of Faith in Hebrews? No one has ever talked about this ever in any church I ever went to.The priest at the church I was going to said that the bible is not the full authority and that some of it has been added to and some subtracted that is why they believe that what the Pope and bishops decide would be the right way to go because they have the authority and challenge.And the reason I like that is if they mess up and teach wrong they will be the ones who will answer to God not the sheep of the fold:)
baby3
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I did not think any one would be able to answer this because I can't remember learning this in the Catholic church after the mass. One nun did talk of dume and glum all the time and scared us all I was afraid of God more then liked him were you?Once I even hated him for letting babies die in Babylon I ran home and cried and cried and told God I hated him and even swore at him,at least I have confessed that it was wrong to you but never to a priest because I never thought of it.I wanted to know why he did this or allowed it to happen I told him if you are so powerful stop this and I stayed mad at him for a long time cause I did not understand like others.Now I want more then ever to learn as much as I can so I will know what to do in the end time.I do what I can for others but I do it because it feels good and I like to. At Christmas I never get gifts but I give gifts and this is my present it has been like this for as long as I can remember.I wish I could give everyone a home and food and clothing and good things.The very rich give only to get back for taxes it makes them look good to.I would love to see more diplomat go to countries that are third world and help someone in need. I would that all rich people would do the same and see how it feels to even be around those in need,what kind of feeling would they get upon looking into the child's empty eyes and swollen stomach.
baby3
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I hope that the priest is referring to the process of canonization which did occur over time and not that the Bible is arbitary.
It is true that in the first century, all the books may have been written, but the canon was not set for either the OT or the NT.
There were many books that were loved and respected that were not included in the canon, but are considered good for reading - they were written after the time of Christ, such as the Shepherd of Hermas, and the Epistles of Clement of Rome. Seven of the NT books that we take for granted were not universally accepted in the early Church. They were not really rejected either, just didn't have the circulation to be used by all the Churches until later.
The canon was not set until the fourth century, and it was quite the process, with many different sets being used in the intervening period.
The Bible cannot be a sole authority because it was the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that decided what books actually belonged.
As for what to do in the end time - the same thing we should always be doing every day.
Jesus said that the Day (of His second coming) would come like a theif in the night. No one knows the day or the hour, so it is always good to be prepared - to be in a state of grace.
The Law of Love presides - Love God with all our heart and mind and strength, and to Love our neighbour as ourself.
Do not be disturbed by what is happening. God is in control. Just cling tight to Jesus when all Hell seems to be breaking loose and know that this was always going to happen before the end.
It is also possible that we won't see the end in our own lifetime. So it is best not to worry about the end, but instead concentrate on our own faith.
The Bible warns of false teachers who will seek to lure us astray. Do not be deceived.
And speaking of deception, not once in the Bible did Jesus ever condemn obedience to God or keeping His commandments or the existance of a religious heirarchy - He did condemn bad leaders and hypocrites, but that is not the same thing.
Jesus established a CHURCH, not a Bible. And His Church did have a structure with rules and doctrines and leaders, not an amorphous mass of believers generally believing sort of the same stuff.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 06/01/2012 18:46:31
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What kind of rules did he have and where can I read them? Or are we talking of the bibl again?Or did they take the bible and translate rules from this?What does the cannon mean and what is in it?
baby3
Edited by baby3 on 06/03/2012 13:04:17
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In this case, I am using "canon" in terms of the canon (rule) of Sacred Scripture. This is not a list of rules so much as a defined list of books that belong in the bible. From Genesis to Revelation.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Why can't they just say the bible then? So the Jews cannon is just the Old testament?
I was asked to help with the communion for today from the Methodist church. I told them no I was not attending any church right now.I did like it there,I feel now I have nothing because I am not back in to Th one I was going to until I talk to the deacon first.I learned very young how to skip church and it's been a bad habit ever since.I wish I could break this habit.Has anyone else ever had this happen to them?
baby3
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The Jewish canon today is more like the Protestant Old Testament, but this is because the Protestants adopted the later Jewish canon in protest to the authority of the Catholic Church to canonize scripture - which is ironic given that the accepted all of the New Testament canon, including the New Testament Deuterocanonicals.
The Jewish canon was not set at the time of Christ. Each sect had its own idea of what belonged and what didn't, but mostly it boiled down to sections. The Bible is comprised of three parts - the Law (Torah), the Prophets, and the Writings.
The Law was the first to be settled and all of the sects accepted all of the Torah as compiled. The Prophets were the next to be settled, but the Sadducees rejected the Prophets and only accepted the Torah, and the Pharisees accepted both the Torah and the Prophets, as did also the Essenes and the Diaspora (those who had been dispersed and not returned, except on pilgrimage).
Of those who did accept the Prophets, some also accepted additional books but these were not settled and there was a little variation in each sect. The Septuagint was used by much of the Diaspora Jews as they spoke Greek, and this canon was larger than even the Catholic canon. The Ethiopian Jews did not speak Greek or Hebrew but had their own collection of books very similar to the Septuagint, but slightly larger and differing by a few books. The Essenes appear to have had a very similar collection of books to what the Catholics use for our OT. The Essenes had all but one of the OT Deuterocanonicals in Hebrew, though all were found amoung their scriptures. Given the state of the cave and the books, the last one may also be in Hebrew as well. None were missing.
At the time of Christ, the Law and the Prophets were settled (even if the Sadducees didn't accept the latter), but the Writings were not, and would not be until the New Testament Writings were included among them as the final volumes of the Bible.
After the Fall of Jerusalem, the Jews still had not settled their canon and would not until a few centuries later. Close in time to when the Christian Church settled their own canon.
But there are clues to what the earliest Christians used. They did not all agree on either the NT or the OT because neither had been settled, but the Apostles and Evangelists did make use of the larger canon.
The Hall of Faith discourse is found in Hebrews 11. The author gives the examples but not all the details - he presumes that the readers have knowledge of the original events recorded in the Old Testament. Every single example exists in the Catholic OT, but some are missing from the Protestant OT.
An important ommission from the Protestant OT are the mother and her sons from 2 Maccabees 7. This is an important example that was raised to help Christians prepare for the coming persecutions. The Maccabean Martyrs even put their hope in the Resurrection at the coming of Our Lord - they were Christian before Christ. But those reading the Hall of Faith discourse without the primer given in the original writing would not have the full details on what Christians might also face or how to properly face them. This glorious example fades without the proper instruction provided by the full OT.
Paul also showed the differing views on the scriptures between the Sadducees and the Pharisees in Acts 23:6. The Resurrection is not readily apparent from the Torah, and is only vaguely mentioned in the Prophets and Writings accepted by the Protestants, but it is very fleshed out in the Deuterocanonicals, which refer not only to the Resurrection in a spiritual sense, but also bodily. The Christian understanding of the Resurrection is found in the Catholic OT, but is only hinted at in the Protestant OT. Paul was a Pharisee and he used the Pharisee understanding of the Resurrection of the DEAD as his bargaining chip. This would only be useful if the understanding was the same. And that could only have happened if the Pharisees used a larger canon that what is used today by the Jews and Protestants.
Most of the quotes from the NT are from the Septuagint version of the OT, but even the OT has references to the Deuterocanonical books as scripture. And getting rid of the Deuterocanonical books was no easy task for the Jews - the Book of Sirach remained in their liturgy for nearly a thousand years after Christ.
One of the reasons why the Catholic Church encourages regular attendence at Mass, is that it is very easy to fall into bad habits and bad habits are very hard to break.
This has happened to lots of people, but you can get back on track. Trust in Jesus. And remember that while Jesus is always with us, wherever we are, He wants us to be together too. We have strength in numbers, we encourage each other in the Faith, even just by worshipping together. When two or three are gathered in HIS NAME, He is in the midst of them.
I will keep you in my prayers and hope that you will find fellowship in the Catholic Church. It is a scary place out there and we need each other IN Christ.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 06/03/2012 16:53:27
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I don't know anything yopu said Faith sorry I just don't understand.You know perhaps the Baptist church is where I belong they don't have all this history to learn and get you all feeling stupid.
baby3
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You don't have to know the history. You asked. I answered.
St. Bernadette flunked religion class and she became a great saint in the Catholic Church. It did not matter if she didn't know the history or all the theology of the Church. She had a simple faith, and lived it.
God chose her because she was willing to say "yes" even when everyone thought she was stupid and a fool.
Isn't the truth more important?
The Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth. You either have to trust the Church to be the Truth, or study everything until you are sure that another one is.
You gave a great defence of the Catholic Church before. It was brilliant and so very true. Unless you have a very sound reason for believing that the Baptist Church IS the very Church that Christ founded and preserved for 2000 years, there is no reason to join with her.
And if you don't have the historical background to be familiar with what I wrote, it does not matter. But if you are looking to change churches, then don't you think you need a better reason than because history isn't your thing?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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It's not just that it's because I am not a church goer and other issues to.To depressed to do anything any more.I really want to go home and leave here.
baby3
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