The invented God of the Muslims
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You would have to be rather simple to believe
that the invented God of the Muslims by Mohammed
is a member of the Trinity.
Catholics believe this to be true.
CCC841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
These liars say to hold the faith of Abraham
and simple Catholics believe them.
Obviously, the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God because they serve a false god. They deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ. Quite simply, they deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to the false teachings of Islam. Therefore the paragraph in the CCC cannot be correct.
I have no issues with the bread-god and Allah being the same entity.
Maybe we should apologise as Catholics were correct after all.
However the Christian Trinity has nothing in common
with the Catholic and Muslims gods
Jn 8:43-44 Why is my language not clear to you?
Because you are unable to hear what I say.
You belong to your father, the devil,
and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
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Fifth Member
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Do you think Jews and Cristians worship the same God? And do you think that the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament? If "yes", why then do you think Muslims have a different God and not the same God of the Jews and Christians?
If you isist that the Muslims worship a differnt God, then you will have to admit that Jews worship a different God and also admit that the God of the OT is not the same as the God of the NT.
You become a blind follower of Marcion.
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quote:
Originally posted by Conqueror
You would have to be rather simple to believe
that the invented God of the Muslims by Mohammed
is a member of the Trinity.
Catholics believe this to be true.
CCC841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
These liars say to hold the faith of Abraham
and simple Catholics believe them.
Obviously, the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God because they serve a false god. They deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ. Quite simply, they deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to the false teachings of Islam. Therefore the paragraph in the CCC cannot be correct.
I have no issues with the bread-god and Allah being the same entity.
Maybe we should apologise as Catholics were correct after all.
However the Christian Trinity has nothing in common
with the Catholic and Muslims gods
Hello Conqueror
I started a thread something like this years ago without your evidence of their CCC841 , but I seen it is true how the CC are one as such with an islamic arab god and say they worship the same god as them is really so demonic to the core!
If a so called popes who says he has infallible truth about the bible not see we don't have the same God even biblically according to these verses:
1Jo:2:21: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo:2:22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo:2:23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
So what father god does islam have when they straight out deny God even having any Son??
To say they worship the same god as muslim would obviously make the catholic church anti-christ church with all of islam!
What a shame!
Shalom
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamati
Do you think Jews and Cristians worship the same God? And do you think that the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament? If "yes", why then do you think Muslims have a different God and not the same God of the Jews and Christians?
If you isist that the Muslims worship a differnt God, then you will have to admit that Jews worship a different God and also admit that the God of the OT is not the same as the God of the NT.
You become a blind follower of Marcion.
Jews are blinded to the truth , and are waiting for the Messiah to come, meaning as such they believe God has a Son, in which Islam believe God can't never have a Son period!
But as long as a Jew doesn't have a Saviour they are as lost and going to hell with all of islam!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Fifth Member
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Hi Evangelist,
You gave me the perfect answer I was looking for. Thank you very much.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Jews are blinded to the truth , and are waiting for the Messiah to come, meaning as such they believe God has a Son, in which Islam believe God can't never have a Son period!
If Jews, who reject the notion that God can become man still worship the same God as we do, why can't Muslims who reject the notion of God having a Son worship the same God we do? Why can't we say they are just as blinded as the Jews?
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
But as long as a Jew doesn't have a Saviour they are as lost and going to hell with all of islam!
Hmmm ... Maybe you have some information I have not yet seen. I did not yet see any Biblical evidence of people being sent to hell as a group/Nation, but rather as individuals. There is such a thing as ignorance. Why would God damn a child born in Mongolia who never heard about Jesus (and even if he heard about Jesus it was in such a bad light)? That must be a sadist god, not the merciful and just God we preach.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamati
Hi Evangelist,
You gave me the perfect answer I was looking for. Thank you very much.
Quote Evangelist:
You are very welcome!
I deal with alot of muslim here where I live and on the job to know what they believe and why, I did years of reseaching on these truths!
I am so glad to be able to share them with any one who is interested.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Jews are blinded to the truth , and are waiting for the Messiah to come, meaning as such they believe God has a Son, in which Islam believe God can't never have a Son period!
If Jews, who reject the notion that God can become man still worship the same God as we do, why can't Muslims who reject the notion of God having a Son worship the same God we do? Why can't we say they are just as blinded as the Jews?
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
But as long as a Jew doesn't have a Saviour they are as lost and going to hell with all of islam!
Hmmm ... Maybe you have some information I have not yet seen. I did not yet see any Biblical evidence of people being sent to hell as a group/Nation, but rather as individuals. There is such a thing as ignorance. Why would God damn a child born in Mongolia who never heard about Jesus (and even if he heard about Jesus it was in such a bad light)? That must be a sadist god, not the merciful and just God we preach.
Let me put it this way, do you think anyone who don't want to leave a JW society or mormon be set to heaven , and we all know they are a false teaching religion?
Have you heard of a christian athiest, or a christian born again terrorist?
God is good and merciful and that is why over and over again he is sending the gospel all over the world for all to know and recieve or reject after hearing!
If a person in the deepest bush never heard the gospel God would judge that group justly and with mercy according to thier hearts, and if we as Christians didn't do our job correctly to bring them them true gospel God will deal with us on that matter!
That is where james come in saying:Jas:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
I have been to a muslim teaching and in themselves they teach also what we believe but claim it as false , but even in thier religion along with many Jews they have heard both side of our belief systems.
The same way Iwhen I hear teaching from my church my pastor sometime explain other belief from other religions, and pass their teaching to us, so the choice is still open.
maybe this might help you:
http://www.allaboutreligion.org/muslim-god-and-christian-god-the-same-faq.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45zrlZuUtiU
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 08/11/2012 04:05:48
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Fifth Member
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Let me put it this way, do you think anyone who don't want to leave a JW society or mormon be set to heaven, and we all know they are a false teaching religion?
Firstly, I already made clear the difference between those who wilfully reject the truth (like you) and those who simply do not know the truth because truth never reached them.
The former is a punishable sin, the later is innocent ignorance ... and the merciful and just God does not punish innocent ignorance.
Secondly, “we all know” that the JWs and the Mormons are false religions, but do all Mormons and all JWs KNOW that they are members of false religions? I do not think so.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Have you heard of a christian athiest, or a christian born again terrorist?
A Christian who becomes atheist ceases to be Christian; "a Christian born again" who becomes a terrorist commits serious sin and needs repentance.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
God is good and merciful and that is why over and over again he is sending the gospel all over the world for all to know and recieve or reject after hearing!
Yet there are still communities out of reach of the gospel and members of those communities can not be accused of having rejected the gospel because it simply never reached them. Do you think they are damned because of that?
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
If a person in the deepest bush never heard the gospel God would judge that group justly and with mercy according to thier hearts,
That is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches when it talks of those who, through no fault of their own, do not know truth.
You agree with us 100%, but we know that you can not afford to be in agreement with popery, so you have to hurry up and find another point of disagreement.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
and if we as Christians didn't do our job correctly to bring them them true gospel God will deal with us on that matter!
Oops! You are actually saying we will be judged according to works or lack thereof. If we do not "DO" our WORK properly God will deal with us because of that omission. Wow!
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
That is where james come in saying:Jas:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
That is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches when it talks of those who, through no fault of their own, do not know truth.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
I have been to a muslim teaching and in themselves they teach also what we believe but claim it as false, but even in thier religion along with many Jews they have heard both side of our belief systems.
Those individuals who heard the gospel and rejected it are culpable like I said earlier.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
The same way Iwhen I hear teaching from my church my pastor sometime explain other belief from other religions, and pass their teaching to us, so the choice is still open.
Some times, yes, but there are times when those other teachings are presented in such a prejudiced way that some people are frightened to even consider further research on their own ... just like the prejudiced way your pastor (or whoever) presented Catholicism to you, so much so that you have to “disagree” with it even when in reality you agree with most of its teachings.
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Fifth Member
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
maybe this might help you:
http://www.allaboutreligion.org/muslim-god-and-christian-god-the-same-faq.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45zrlZuUtiU
one love
I find this strange that people who at one stage told us that all we need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit are increasingly directing us away from the Bible and to extra Biblical writings/websites. They seem to believe that the author of those writings/websites got it right than everybody else.
Now, back to my question: if you think that the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament, why can’t the God of the Muslims be the same as the God of Christians?
Of course, when you say that Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God you are opening a can of worms. You are busy manufacturing false gods, sure. Because if different understands of God mean different gods, then you have also to believe that:
1. Jehovah’s Witnesses have a different god (who is not a Trinity);
2. Catholics have a different god (a Trinity);
3. Muslims have a different god (who has no Son);
4. Oneness Pentecostals have a different god (a modalist);
5. Mormons have a different God (who was once a man);
6. Jews have a different god (pure spirit and can not incarnate);
7. SDAs have a different God (whose only interest is Sabbath-keeping); etc, etc.
You have also to believe that the God who encouraged vengeance in the Old Testament can not be the same God who tells us to turn the other cheek and to pray for our enemies in the New Testament.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamati
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
maybe this might help you:
http://www.allaboutreligion.org/muslim-god-and-christian-god-the-same-faq.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45zrlZuUtiU
one love
I find this strange that people who at one stage told us that all we need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit are increasingly directing us away from the Bible and to extra Biblical writings/websites. They seem to believe that the author of those writings/websites got it right than everybody else.
Now, back to my question: if you think that the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament, why can’t the God of the Muslims be the same as the God of Christians?
Of course, when you say that Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God you are opening a can of worms. You are busy manufacturing false gods, sure. Because if different understands of God mean different gods, then you have also to believe that:
1. Jehovah’s Witnesses have a different god (who is not a Trinity);
2. Catholics have a different god (a Trinity);
3. Muslims have a different god (who has no Son);
4. Oneness Pentecostals have a different god (a modalist);
5. Mormons have a different God (who was once a man);
6. Jews have a different god (pure spirit and can not incarnate);
7. SDAs have a different God (whose only interest is Sabbath-keeping); etc, etc.
You have also to believe that the God who encouraged vengeance in the Old Testament can not be the same God who tells us to turn the other cheek and to pray for our enemies in the New Testament.
The main thing you are missing is the relationships they don't have with their gods in which we have!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Fifth Member
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Member since 07/20/2012
Location: Namibia
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
The main thing you are missing is the relationships they don't have with their gods in which we have!
No, I am not missing that one ... only that I am a lowly Catholic who, unlike you, is unable to read people's hearts.
Now, I can see that you shifting the focus ... strangely, it is now the "relationships" that determine whether Muslims and Christians worship the same God.
Look, Islam is a false religion but "false region" is not synonimous with "false god". That is the focus of our discussion.
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Fifth Member
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Member since 07/20/2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Conqueror
Maybe we should apologise as Catholics were correct after all.
However the Christian Trinity has nothing in common with the Catholic and Muslims gods
Okay, when exactly was the "Christian Trinity" defined, and can you provide a detailed definition of the "Christian Trinity"?
The last time I checked the real Christian Trinity was defined by Catholics at the General Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.
Please give us evidence showing that the “Christian Trinity” you are talking about is not actually the same Trinity defined by Catholics.
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Fifth Member
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Hello Conqueror
I started a thread something like this years ago without your evidence of their CCC841 , but I seen it is true how the CC are one as such with an islamic arab god and say they worship the same god as them is really so demonic to the core!
Hold your judgment because you have not yet considered all sides of the story. When everything is said and done, Catholics would be proven right. Watch this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
If a so called popes who says he has infallible truth about the bible not see we don't have the same God even biblically according to these verses:
1Jo:2:21: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo:2:22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo:2:23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Okay, I will now sit back and wait for you to announce that Jews and Christians do not worship the same God, why? Because the Jews deny the Son. Now, go ahead and make the claim that the Jews and Christians worship two different gods..
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
So what father god does islam have when they straight out deny God even having any Son?
They have a wrong understanding of God but that does not mean they have a different God. Take the Jews for instance. They also have a lacking understanding of God but you never accuse them of worshiping a different god. You have to be consistent. If different understand of God means a different god then Jews worship a different god ... I dare you make that claim.
If that is too much, take the Jehovah’s Witnesses who deny that God is Triune ... I dare you accuse them of worshiping a different god.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
To say they worship the same god as muslim would obviously make the catholic church anti-christ church with all of islam!
What a shame!
Yes, what a shame to pass judgement before listening to both sides.
And the other side of the story is that Muslems believe in the same God as Christians but they fail to realise the true nature of God just like the Jews.
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Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by Conqueror
You would have to be rather simple to believe
that the invented God of the Muslims by Mohammed
is a member of the Trinity.
Catholics believe this to be true.
CCC841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
These liars say to hold the faith of Abraham
and simple Catholics believe them.
Obviously, the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God because they serve a false god. They deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ. Quite simply, they deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to the false teachings of Islam. Therefore the paragraph in the CCC cannot be correct.
I have no issues with the bread-god and Allah being the same entity.
Maybe we should apologise as Catholics were correct after all.
However the Christian Trinity has nothing in common
with the Catholic and Muslims gods
Your post is called calomny. It is a breaking of the 8th commandment. You are deliberately saying something you know to be untrue in order to ruin the good name of another namely the Catholic Church. You shall not bear false witness.
Do you think the 8th commandment does not apply to you?
Do Protestants think there is some sort of exception to breaking the 8th commandment if they break it speaking about the Catholic Church?
Do Protestants think God is going to reward them for breaking the 8th commandment when speaking about the Catholic Church?
This is a example of what I mean when I say Protestants project their false assumptions on to the Catholic.
Through bigotry prejudices false assumptions & false premises Protestants are protesting a catholic church made up by Protestantism that does not actually exist.
Edited by michael on 08/11/2012 08:18:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamati
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
The main thing you are missing is the relationships they don't have with their gods in which we have!
No, I am not missing that one ... only that I am a lowly Catholic who, unlike you, is unable to read people's hearts.
Now, I can see that you shifting the focus ... strangely, it is now the "relationships" that determine whether Muslims and Christians worship the same God.
Look, Islam is a false religion but "false region" is not synonimous with "false god". That is the focus of our discussion.
Look at the attributes of our God and the muslim god and see they no way match!
It is like explaining to a police man to find me and you give another detail about who I am, where I come from , and what I look like compare to the person I really am like maybe giving the same name evangelist and say I come from japan , and I have yellow skin, and speak japan, and always like to take pictures, but the name is the same evangelist who sometime is on spero, but is not a christian, would the police or detective be able to find the me the reaL ONE AND ONLY Evangelist?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Kamati
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Hello Conqueror
I started a thread something like this years ago without your evidence of their CCC841 , but I seen it is true how the CC are one as such with an islamic arab god and say they worship the same god as them is really so demonic to the core!
Hold your judgment because you have not yet considered all sides of the story. When everything is said and done, Catholics would be proven right. Watch this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
If a so called popes who says he has infallible truth about the bible not see we don't have the same God even biblically according to these verses:
1Jo:2:21: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo:2:22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo:2:23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Okay, I will now sit back and wait for you to announce that Jews and Christians do not worship the same God, why? Because the Jews deny the Son. Now, go ahead and make the claim that the Jews and Christians worship two different gods..
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
So what father god does islam have when they straight out deny God even having any Son?
They have a wrong understanding of God but that does not mean they have a different God. Take the Jews for instance. They also have a lacking understanding of God but you never accuse them of worshiping a different god. You have to be consistent. If different understand of God means a different god then Jews worship a different god ... I dare you make that claim.
If that is too much, take the Jehovah’s Witnesses who deny that God is Triune ... I dare you accuse them of worshiping a different god.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
To say they worship the same god as muslim would obviously make the catholic church anti-christ church with all of islam!
What a shame!
Yes, what a shame to pass judgement before listening to both sides.
And the other side of the story is that Muslems believe in the same God as Christians but they fail to realise the true nature of God just like the Jews.
And that is why most Jews and muslims are going to hell because they don't have a Saviour who is the real God!
Why you don't say something about what the bible made so clear who is an anti Christ and don't have the Father God without Jesus??
1Jo:2:21: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo:2:22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo:2:23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
You do know the Father in those scripture is the true one and only God?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/20/2012
Location: Namibia
quote:
Originally posted by michael
quote:
Originally posted by Conqueror
You would have to be rather simple to believe
that the invented God of the Muslims by Mohammed
is a member of the Trinity.
Catholics believe this to be true.
CCC841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
These liars say to hold the faith of Abraham
and simple Catholics believe them.
Obviously, the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God because they serve a false god. They deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ. Quite simply, they deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to the false teachings of Islam. Therefore the paragraph in the CCC cannot be correct.
I have no issues with the bread-god and Allah being the same entity.
Maybe we should apologise as Catholics were correct after all.
However the Christian Trinity has nothing in common
with the Catholic and Muslims gods
Your post is called calomny. It is a breaking of the 8th commandment. You are deliberately saying something you know to be untrue in order to ruin the good name of another namely the Catholic Church. You shall not bear false witness.
Do you think the 8th commandment does not apply to you?
Do Protestants think there is some sort of exception to breaking the 8th commandment if they break it speaking about the Catholic Church?
Do Protestants think God is going to reward them for breaking the 8th commandment when speaking about the Catholic Church?
This is a example of what I mean when I say Protestants project their false assumptions on to the Catholic.
Hi Mike,
8th commandment or no 8th commandment Protestants believe they are already saved, even when they sin deliberately by telling lies ... they are already saved. that is what you have to understand when you deal with such people. You may be afraid of sinning because you know that would enganger your salvation, but they believe that there is nothing that would ever endanger their salavation, not even if they tell lies deliberately. Do you understand now?
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