The invented God of the Muslims
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You would have to be rather simple to believe that the invented God of the Muslims by Mohammed is a member of the Trinity.Catholics believe this to be true. CCC841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the more... Jn 8:43-44 Why is my language not clear to you?
Because you are unable to hear what I say.
You belong to your father, the devil,
and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
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Conquer,
I'm not sure how you came to your conclusion based on your O/P.
All the CCC is conveying is that Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in the Old Testament.
No where is it written or taught that Muslims and Jews are Christians. They do not have the Truth; the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church. -Archbishop Sheen
... you should know that there is present with you the angel whom God has appointed for each man… This angel, who is sleepless and cannot be deceived, is always present with you; he sees all things and is not hindered by darkness. You should know, too, that with him is God. -St. Anthony the Great
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Look at the attributes of our God and the muslim god and see they no way match!
Okay, while I do that, you look at the attributes of the God of the New Testament and the God of the Old Testament and see they no way match. Are they two different gods?
No ways!
Meanwhile, for the sake of concrete evidence, please present me at least five attributes of the Muslim God that differ from the Christian God and I will do the same with the Old Testament God (note: I do not actually believe that there is a OT God and a NT God, I am merely trying to point out how irrational your arguments are).
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
And that is why most Jews and muslims are going to hell because they don't have a Saviour who is the real God!
I have no comment. I simply find it very strange that so many Protestants actually think they do not only know for sure that they are saved, but they also know for sure who is going to hell.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Why you don't say something about what the bible made so clear who is an anti Christ and don't have the Father God without Jesus?
O, you want to know why I am not talking about the anti Christ?
Perhaps because this thread is not about the anti Christ, but about whether Muslims and Christians serve the same God.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
1Jo:2:21: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo:2:22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo:2:23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
You do know the Father in those scripture is the true one and only God?
Yes, I know that the Father-Son-Holy Spirit is the only God, but I have to tell you that you totally lost the plot now. The question is not about who the anti Christ is; the question is whether Christians and Muslims serve the same God.
If Muslims are the anti Christ for not believing in Christ, then the Jews are the anti Christ for not believing in Christ, yet that is the point you try to avoid at any cost.
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All are called to worship God because He is the Creator of all. That includes non-Christians. When Christ was born even the Magi who were Zoroastrian star gazers were led to him. Did Mary say, "Take a hike, Pagans!" 'He is OUR God!"
No. She accepted their gifts and allowed them to adore the Christ Child.
You could learn much from Our Blessed Mother.
Edited by heavenlysecrets on 08/11/2012 16:39:20
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It is good to see that conquered and Evan both adhere to the definition of god which was formally established by the catholic church. After all it is just another catholic invention like the mass, the pope, the eucharist, the bible, etcetc.
As for the issue of whether or not the Muslim god is the same or not I will ask them to simply read about Ishmael in the book of genesis. Or read about god to the Jews in the old testament. The difference isn't the god, rather it is the revelation about that god that differs.. Paul stated we see through a glass darkly and he was the christian! It should only be obvious that without the benefit of Christian tradition a person would have a lesser revelation of god.. The main point though is that they do believe in one god, not millions. That he is a creator and not a part of creation. And that he is the god which the to speaks about. Again their beliefs about him differ from the full revelation we have in the church, but he is the same god we are both referring to.
I would also like to point out that you are on a very dangerous road con.. The fascination of cults, conspiracies and such which fundamentalism offers is a distraction and an idolatry. Too many times it will pull its followers away from truth and faith and into a religion of sensationalism and self righteous arrogance, which are already evident in your posts here. I caution you as a person who once also slipped down that road to turn back now.
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
It is good to see that conquered and Evan both adhere to the definition of god which was formally established by the catholic church. After all it is just another catholic invention like the mass, the pope, the eucharist, the bible, etcetc.
As for the issue of whether or not the Muslim god is the same or not I will ask them to simply read about Ishmael in the book of genesis. Or read about god to the Jews in the old testament. The difference isn't the god, rather it is the revelation about that god that differs.. Paul stated we see through a glass darkly and he was the christian! It should only be obvious that without the benefit of Christian tradition a person would have a lesser revelation of god.. The main point though is that they do believe in one god, not millions. That he is a creator and not a part of creation. And that he is the god which the to speaks about. Again their beliefs about him differ from the full revelation we have in the church, but he is the same god we are both referring to.
I would also like to point out that you are on a very dangerous road con.. The fascination of cults, conspiracies and such which fundamentalism offers is a distraction and an idolatry. Too many times it will pull its followers away from truth and faith and into a religion of sensationalism and self righteous arrogance, which are already evident in your posts here. I caution you as a person who once also slipped down that road to turn back now.
What revelation did the Muslims receive about Allah?
Jn 8:43-44 Why is my language not clear to you?
Because you are unable to hear what I say.
You belong to your father, the devil,
and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamati
quote:
Originally posted by michael
quote:
Originally posted by Conqueror
You would have to be rather simple to believe
that the invented God of the Muslims by Mohammed
is a member of the Trinity.
Catholics believe this to be true.
CCC841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
These liars say to hold the faith of Abraham
and simple Catholics believe them.
Obviously, the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God because they serve a false god. They deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ. Quite simply, they deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to the false teachings of Islam. Therefore the paragraph in the CCC cannot be correct.
I have no issues with the bread-god and Allah being the same entity.
Maybe we should apologise as Catholics were correct after all.
However the Christian Trinity has nothing in common
with the Catholic and Muslims gods
Your post is called calomny. It is a breaking of the 8th commandment. You are deliberately saying something you know to be untrue in order to ruin the good name of another namely the Catholic Church. You shall not bear false witness.
Do you think the 8th commandment does not apply to you?
Do Protestants think there is some sort of exception to breaking the 8th commandment if they break it speaking about the Catholic Church?
Do Protestants think God is going to reward them for breaking the 8th commandment when speaking about the Catholic Church?
This is a example of what I mean when I say Protestants project their false assumptions on to the Catholic.
Hi Mike,
8th commandment or no 8th commandment Protestants believe they are already saved, even when they sin deliberately by telling lies ... they are already saved. that is what you have to understand when you deal with such people. You may be afraid of sinning because you know that would enganger your salvation, but they believe that there is nothing that would ever endanger their salavation, not even if they tell lies deliberately. Do you understand now?
AMEN!
Here a scripture to maybe help Mike see this truth about our righteousness even when we fall short of the glory as not being a sinner again and again as the catholic believe are say they still are sinner not saved by any grace and always under condemnation from thier churchy!
Ro:8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
So the truth of the matter is catholic are not in Christ Jesus they are in a roman catholic society of it own, so grace can't abound only condemnation and never come short of the glory remaining aways perfect or else purgatory as thier second back up plan!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 08/13/2012 01:33:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamati
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Look at the attributes of our God and the muslim god and see they no way match!
Okay, while I do that, you look at the attributes of the God of the New Testament and the God of the Old Testament and see they no way match. Are they two different gods?
No ways!
Meanwhile, for the sake of concrete evidence, please present me at least five attributes of the Muslim God that differ from the Christian God and I will do the same with the Old Testament God (note: I do not actually believe that there is a OT God and a NT God, I am merely trying to point out how irrational your arguments are).
Just before you do that don't forget to add Jesus Christ some where into your study or researching with the OT and the NT , so you don't get confussed, and to make your study even harder and to find the truth , don't forget Jesus is also God so please Don't mix in three different God'S!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamati
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
And that is why most Jews and muslims are going to hell because they don't have a Saviour who is the real God!
I have no comment. I simply find it very strange that so many Protestants actually think they do not only know for sure that they are saved, but they also know for sure who is going to hell.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Why you don't say something about what the bible made so clear who is an anti Christ and don't have the Father God without Jesus?
O, you want to know why I am not talking about the anti Christ?
Perhaps because this thread is not about the anti Christ, but about whether Muslims and Christians serve the same God.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
1Jo:2:21: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo:2:22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo:2:23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
You do know the Father in those scripture is the true one and only God?
Yes, I know that the Father-Son-Holy Spirit is the only God, but I have to tell you that you totally lost the plot now. The question is not about who the anti Christ is; the question is whether Christians and Muslims serve the same God.
If Muslims are the anti Christ for not believing in Christ, then the Jews are the anti Christ for not believing in Christ, yet that is the point you try to avoid at any cost.
BINGO!
The bold in red is a perfect truth as such and wher does a anti christ person go after death??
Let me help you to hell !
I did not say this the bible made this direct judement on those who don't accept Jesus as the Son of God, and thier is no way around that truth!
Either you accept and believe by faith or you reject and disbelieve by no faith and go where the anti Christ is going so those disbelieving people are one with the anti Christ to hell , just like we are one with Christ unto heaven where Jesus is!
I also pointed out so many time historically that Islam believes in a paggan stone statue rock goddess called al-lat and they worship that rock and the rock from outer space as such in thier kabbat they march around every day in mecca, and still today do the exact traditions as the pagans did in thier worship to thier moon god!
Do you think the moon , and the stars is also the same God you worship kamati?
my source:
http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm
What is the history behind the crescent moon symbol? What does it symbolize or mean? How and when did it become associated with the faith of Islam? Is it a valid symbol for the faith?
The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several thousand years. Information on the origins of the symbol are difficult to ascertain, but most sources agree that these ancient celestial symbols were in use by the peoples of Central Asia and Siberia in their worship of sun, moon, and sky gods. There are also reports that the crescent moon and star were used to represent the Carthaginian goddess Tanit or the Greek goddess Diana.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 08/13/2012 01:50:05
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CCC841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
quote:
Originally posted by LuminousPax
Conquer,
I'm not sure how you came to your conclusion based on your O/P.
All the CCC is conveying is that Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in the Old Testament.
No where is it written or taught that Muslims and Jews are Christians. They do not have the Truth; the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The fools who wrote the catechism state that Muslims are saved.
Jn 8:43-44 Why is my language not clear to you?
Because you are unable to hear what I say.
You belong to your father, the devil,
and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
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quote:
Originally posted by Conqueror
CCC841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
quote:
Originally posted by LuminousPax
Conquer,
I'm not sure how you came to your conclusion based on your O/P.
All the CCC is conveying is that Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in the Old Testament.
No where is it written or taught that Muslims and Jews are Christians. They do not have the Truth; the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The fools who wrote the catechism state that Muslims are saved.
You got to be kidding!
Please tell me that a joke!
Everyone almost know that we can only be saved through the Son of God Jesus and His death on the cross which the muslim straight out deny and reject even though they seen clearly the truth about the cross, even to a point of understanding and no excuse of misunderstanding, it is a rejecting even to a point of getting thier head cut off if they believe in the Son of God period!
I gave the catholic here a scripture in 1 John saying if anyone doesn't have the Son of God they don't have the Father God of the bible and the only one creator God!
How can the catholic not see this truth and along with that claim they are saved??
They is totally demonically deception to the core from the pits of hell!WWWWOOOOWWW
Shalom
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 08/13/2012 01:56:03
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
BINGO!
The bold in red is a perfect truth as such and wher does a anti christ person go after death??
You seem to be an expert in distraction. If the Muslim God is different from the Christian God simply because they do not believe in Christ, then the Jewish God is different from the Christian God because they too do not believe in Christ.
That is my point! Yet you want to divert it into another issue.
Now, do you believe and preach that the Jewish God is different from the Christian God?
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Mohammed invents a god
and gullible Catholics believe this god is theirs too.
Jn 8:43-44 Why is my language not clear to you?
Because you are unable to hear what I say.
You belong to your father, the devil,
and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
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Fifth Member
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Let me help you to hell !
I did not say this the bible made this direct judement on those who don't accept Jesus as the Son of God, and thier is no way around that truth!
But our debate is about whether Muslims and Christians worship the same God; it is not about the anti Christ.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Either you accept and believe by faith or you reject and disbelieve by no faith and go where the anti Christ is going so those disbelieving people are one with the anti Christ to hell , just like we are one with Christ unto heaven where Jesus is!
We can debate that elsewhere. Here you have to tell me why Christians and Jews can worship the same God, yet Muslims and Christians can not.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
I also pointed out so many time historically that Islam believes in a paggan stone statue rock goddess called al-lat and they worship that rock and the rock from outer space as such in thier kabbat they march around every day in mecca, and still today do the exact traditions as the pagans did in thier worship to thier moon god
Wrong source.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Do you think the moon , and the stars is also the same God you worship kamati?
No, I do not believe that, neither do I believe websites that I suspect of misrepresenting Islam. I would prefer official sources.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
my source:
http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm
You are now being careless and reckless. Try to find out what about.com says about Pentecostalism and you will never again put your trust in what it says. If they can misrepresent Pentecostalism, why can’t they do the same with Islam?
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
What is the history behind the crescent moon symbol? What does it symbolize or mean? How and when did it become associated with the faith of Islam? Is it a valid symbol for the faith?
See my response above.
[quote]Originally posted by evangelist
The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several thousand years. Information on the origins of the symbol are difficult to ascertain, but most sources agree that these ancient celestial symbols were in use by the peoples of Central Asia and Siberia in their worship of sun, moon, and sky gods. There are also reports that the crescent moon and star were used to represent the Carthaginian goddess Tanit or the Greek goddess Diana.
Better find another source, a more credible one, preferable official one.
Some people do really under estimate the Catholic Church. How someone in his right mind would think that the Catholic Church would say Muslims and Christians worship the same God if Muslims worshiped the moon and the stars. That is foolish.
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I think you will understand much better if you read CCC841 in context because out of context it becomes a mere pretext used to attack the Catholic Church.
TThe Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."
840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
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