Does salvation depends on activities?
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Does salvation depends on the activity of the sinner?
Spiritually dead sinners, who are likely, to follow their natural inclination,
rather than instruction from the authority of the written Word of God,
hope that they will move Christ by their activities
to have compassion upon them and to accept them.
Despite their initiative to seek God by saying prayers,
attending ineffective sacerdotal religious ceremonies
and earnestly striving against sin,
they realise that they continue to sin
and thus become perplexed and discouraged.
At this point Satan initiates his secret attacks.
Unbelieving and wretched thoughts arise in their own hearts as well,
which they are unable to deal with.
They also secretly imagine that the initiative must be theirs,
that it all depends on their activity.
This is likely to continue for some time.
Jn 8:43-44 Why is my language not clear to you?
Because you are unable to hear what I say.
You belong to your father, the devil,
and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
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Fifth Member
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Let me get this straight.
Saying prayers, attending "ineffective sacerdotal religious ceremonies" (can't you just say "Mass)? and striving against sin prompts Satan to attack us because we know we'll fall back into sin?
Well, Satan won't work through our humility, he works through our pride. Just the opposite with God. He absolutely will not work through our pride. If we are humble and receptive to His Word, we can and will be His instruments for His Greater Glory.
It is precisely because we sin that Catholics will not say we are righteous and justified before God. born again or not. If you say you are indeed righteous and justified, you think justice was done by His dying on the Cross. Jesus DESERVED to die so you can get to heaven.
That is why we choose Catholicism over your poison. We do not try to move Christ to compassion to get to heaven. Manipulation is your game.
What does the word "justify" mean to you?
Edited by heavenlysecrets on 08/12/2012 23:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by heavenlysecrets
Let me get this straight.
Saying prayers, attending "ineffective sacerdotal religious ceremonies" (can't you just say "Mass)? and striving against sin prompts Satan to attack us because we know we'll fall back into sin?
Well, Satan won't work through our humility, he works through our pride. Just the opposite with God. He absolutely will not work through our pride. If we are humble and receptive to His Word, we can and will be His instruments for His Greater Glory.
It is precisely because we sin that Catholics will not say we are righteous and justified before God. born again or not. If you say you are indeed righteous and justified, you think justice was done by His dying on the Cross. Jesus DESERVED to die so you can get to heaven.
That is why we choose Catholicism over your poison. We do not try to move Christ to compassion to get to heaven. Manipulation is your game.
catholics can't say they are righteous[With God]. Because they aren't, That why they go about trying to establish their own righteousness.
But Born again Christians Can, Do and should say we are righteous, Because God says we are, And we should agree with God.
If catholics believe they are the true Church, Then not to say they are righteous is calling God a liar.
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quote:
Originally posted by Conqueror
Does salvation depends on the activity of the sinner?
Salvation is a process that depends on enduring to the end.
quote:
Originally posted by Conqueror
Spiritually dead sinners, who are likely, to follow their natural inclination, rather than instruction from the authority of the written Word of God, hope that they will move Christ by their activities to have compassion upon them and to accept them.
The picture you are painting does not depict spiritually dead sinners, but humble believers as opposed to boastful Pharisees who are righteous in their own eyes ... and you fit perfectly in the Pharisees’ group.
quote:
Originally posted by Conqueror
Despite their initiative to seek God by saying prayers, attending ineffective sacerdotal religious ceremonies and earnestly striving against sin, they realise that they continue to sin and thus become perplexed and discouraged.
You are deliberately mixing truth with lies. Seeking God, praying, attending church services and earnestly striving against sin is required of Christians, but you “see” that as leading to disillusionment and discouragement. Maybe you want people to stop seeking God, to stop praying, to stop attending Church and to surrender to sin ...
quote:
Originally posted by Conqueror
At this point Satan initiates his secret attacks.
And Satan only attacks his enemies, not his friends. If those you described are attacked by Satan, then that means they are Satan’s enemies.
quote:
Originally posted by Conqueror
Unbelieving and wretched thoughts arise in their own hearts as well, which they are unable to deal with.
What you are saying is that Satan wins every time he attacks someone. That is why you conclude that those attacked by Satan end up having wretched thoughts; to avoid this satanic attack they must never seek God, never pray, never attend church service never strive against sin ... then they would be save; Satan will not attack them at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Conqueror
They also secretly imagine that the initiative must be theirs, that it all depends on their activity.
That is a failed attempt at reading people’s hearts or maybe you are fabricating a group of imaginary people that you can easily deal with because you can not deal with real people who actually disagree with you.
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quote:
Originally posted by God4me
catholics can't say they are righteous[With God]. Because they aren't, That why they go about trying to establish their own righteousness.
But Born again Christians Can, Do and should say we are righteous, Because God says we are, And we should agree with God.
If catholics believe they are the true Church, Then not to say they are righteous is calling God a liar.
There is also this thing called being righteous in your own eyes
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Fifth Member
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I would still like to know how the Greek word DIKAIO'O (justify) is intended to be used when you say you are righteous and justified before God. For Catholics, justification requires a transformation of the soul, which can be a long and often painful process. It is more than just a covering of your sins, or imputation, because underneath you would still be your same sinful self. Having faith through prevailing grace,and a willingness to say "yes" to the grace through your own free will is how we will attain Salvation. Only then will we know we have been justified.
Edited by heavenlysecrets on 08/13/2012 01:02:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamati
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
catholics can't say they are righteous[With God]. Because they aren't, That why they go about trying to establish their own righteousness.
But Born again Christians Can, Do and should say we are righteous, Because God says we are, And we should agree with God.
If catholics believe they are the true Church, Then not to say they are righteous is calling God a liar.
There is also this thing called being righteous in your own eyes
G4 is talking about God righteousness which is a gift and unconditional given to us!
God see us born again christian righteous because of Jesus not of ourselves like religion teaches tjrough some tradition which make the truth of no effect!
Grace is unconditional and not based on our activities or performances, and good works of our own!
Salvazion is a Zoe life , or sozo salvation with nothing missing and noting whatsoever broken or sinful or not sick and in any lack!
Eph 1:3
What is missing out of the word (ALL)??
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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quote:
Originally posted by heavenlysecrets
I would still like to know how the Greek word DIKAIO'O (justify) is intended to be used when you say you are righteous and justified before God. For Catholics, justification requires a transformation of the soul, which can be a long and often painful process. It is more than just a covering of your sins, or imputation, because underneath you would still be your same sinful self. Having faith through prevailing grace,and a willingness to say "yes" to the grace through your own free will is how we will attain Salvation. Only then will we know we have been justified.
That is why our soul and body is not redeemed yet, only our real us the spirit man is redeemed and will remain the same justified and holy , purified forever unless we renounce Jesus , and that part of us goes directly to the throne of God because of the imputation of Christ character into our new brand new spirits which was born of God gifted to us as our salvation, which is what make the christian gospel so good and to good for religious people to believe or accept!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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quote:
Originally posted by heavenlysecrets
Let me get this straight.
Saying prayers, attending "ineffective sacerdotal religious ceremonies" (can't you just say "Mass)? and striving against sin prompts Satan to attack us because we know we'll fall back into sin?
Well, Satan won't work through our humility, he works through our pride. Just the opposite with God. He absolutely will not work through our pride. If we are humble and receptive to His Word, we can and will be His instruments for His Greater Glory.
It is precisely because we sin that Catholics will not say we are righteous and justified before God. born again or not. If you say you are indeed righteous and justified, you think justice was done by His dying on the Cross. Jesus DESERVED to die so you can get to heaven.
That is why we choose Catholicism over your poison. We do not try to move Christ to compassion to get to heaven. Manipulation is your game.
What does the word "justify" mean to you?
What did he do to deserve that?
Jn 8:43-44 Why is my language not clear to you?
Because you are unable to hear what I say.
You belong to your father, the devil,
and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
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Fifth Member
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Member since 07/20/2012
Location: Namibia
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
G4 is talking about God righteousness which is a gift and unconditional given to us!
Okay, if righteousness is a gift given unconditionally, then you have to blame God for not giving the gift of unconditional righteousness to Catholics ... or are you using words without knowing what they mean?
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
God see us born again christian righteous because of Jesus not of ourselves like religion teaches tjrough some tradition which make the truth of no effect!
Okay, that being the case, then God is to blame for not making sure all people are born again and righteous. You say we have to do absolutely nothing, so God is to blame, eh?
But you also say that God will deal will us if we fail to do our part.
Hmmm ... it seems the first thing Satan did with you was to destroy your ability to notice how you contradict yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Grace is unconditional and not based on our activities or performances, and good works of our own!
That being the case then you have to explain why this unconditional grace is given only to you and not to me.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Salvazion is a Zoe life , or sozo salvation with nothing missing and noting whatsoever broken or sinful or not sick and in any lack!
Answer the questions:
1. Are you without sin?
2. Was Jesus telling a lie when He said those who endure to the end will be saved?
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Eph 1:3
What is missing out of the word (ALL)??
Nothing is missing, but do you really believe that Ephesians 1:3 contradicts Matthew 24:13?
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
That is why our soul and body is not redeemed yet, only our real us the spirit man is redeemed and will remain the same justified and holy, purified forever unless we renounce Jesus,
Aha, if it is possible to renounce Jesus then “once saved” is hoax.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
and that part of us goes directly to the throne of God because of the imputation of Christ character into our new brand new spirits which was born of God gifted to us as our salvation, which is what make the christian gospel so good and to good for religious people to believe or accept!
I was reading this and waiting for you to say whether that is what the Bible says or whether that is just your understanding of the Bible?
And I can see how you talk against religion again. It is now either Evangelist or James ... and I side with James.
It is now clear that you, like Luther, hate James and you would like to have a 65 book Bible.
But as long as you keep James in your Bible you remain a hypocrite who suposedly loves the Bible but hates what it says.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamati
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
G4 is talking about God righteousness which is a gift and unconditional given to us!
Okay, if righteousness is a gift given unconditionally, then you have to blame God for not giving the gift of unconditional righteousness to Catholics ... or are you using words without knowing what they mean?
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
God see us born again christian righteous because of Jesus not of ourselves like religion teaches tjrough some tradition which make the truth of no effect!
Okay, that being the case, then God is to blame for not making sure all people are born again and righteous. You say we have to do absolutely nothing, so God is to blame, eh?
But you also say that God will deal will us if we fail to do our part.
Hmmm ... it seems the first thing Satan did with you was to destroy your ability to notice how you contradict yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Grace is unconditional and not based on our activities or performances, and good works of our own!
That being the case then you have to explain why this unconditional grace is given only to you and not to me.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Salvazion is a Zoe life , or sozo salvation with nothing missing and noting whatsoever broken or sinful or not sick and in any lack!
Answer the questions:
1. Are you without sin?
2. Was Jesus telling a lie when He said those who endure to the end will be saved?
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Eph 1:3
What is missing out of the word (ALL)??
Nothing is missing, but do you really believe that Ephesians 1:3 contradicts Matthew 24:13?
NO! we all have sins even sins from what we should have done, and didn't do deliberately!
Yes! we need to stay saved and not renounce Jesus in which we have a free will to become unsaved before the end by renouncing Jesus and rejecting the cross and His eternal blood for us!
Also we are the blame for not recieving what He made available to every man, and that is recieved by faith of your heart, not any outward performances so God can see your outward actions and works.
God judge the heart man judge by your outward works by measurements of small and big sins, but all sins is unclean before God!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamati
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
That is why our soul and body is not redeemed yet, only our real us the spirit man is redeemed and will remain the same justified and holy, purified forever unless we renounce Jesus,
Aha, if it is possible to renounce Jesus then “once saved” is hoax.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
and that part of us goes directly to the throne of God because of the imputation of Christ character into our new brand new spirits which was born of God gifted to us as our salvation, which is what make the christian gospel so good and to good for religious people to believe or accept!
I was reading this and waiting for you to say whether that is what the Bible says or whether that is just your understanding of the Bible?
And I can see how you talk against religion again. It is now either Evangelist or James ... and I side with James.
It is now clear that you, like Luther, hate James and you would like to have a 65 book Bible.
But as long as you keep James in your Bible you remain a hypocrite who suposedly loves the Bible but hates what it says.
I believe the whole bible and I think you should know that by now because that is why the bible is our final authority , but if it is not someones finl authority there would issues and complications with alot of confusion and false interpretaions!
I don't believe ASAS is a whole truth and I also accept what James is teaching in proper contexts which Luther had a problem with grace and works specially when the bible say when there is works there is no more grace and if not taken in proper contexts it looks like the bible or james as such is taken other part of the bible out of contexts in which I know it doesn't.
People, and specially religion make the works seems like the works is moving God but it is the other way around is that God already recieved us without any works and gave us all we need, and we do the works because of what we already have recieved which brings in the uncondition gospel!
religion at large has mixed so much of our work system into our belief that it seems impossible to have everything without first the work.
We are brought up this man made concept for so many years of being brain washed into that works system that grace is rejected because it doesn't go by man system of how we have be brain washed to get, or do the do's and don't!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 08/13/2012 03:06:06
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Fifth Member
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quote:
Originally posted by Conqueror
quote:
Originally posted by heavenlysecrets
Let me get this straight.
Saying prayers, attending "ineffective sacerdotal religious ceremonies" (can't you just say "Mass)? and striving against sin prompts Satan to attack us because we know we'll fall back into sin?
Well, Satan won't work through our humility, he works through our pride. Just the opposite with God. He absolutely will not work through our pride. If we are humble and receptive to His Word, we can and will be His instruments for His Greater Glory.
It is precisely because we sin that Catholics will not say we are righteous and justified before God. born again or not. If you say you are indeed righteous and justified, you think justice was done by His dying on the Cross. Jesus DESERVED to die so you can get to heaven.
That is why we choose Catholicism over your poison. We do not try to move Christ to compassion to get to heaven. Manipulation is your game.
What does the word "justify" mean to you?
What did he do to deserve that?
Hey conqueror, I think you are misunderstanding heavenlysecrets. What this person is saying is "IF" you say you're already righteous, then logically you must also be saying that Jesus Christ deserved to die and that justice was done to him, since you do not need to be forgiven any longer.
I'm not Catholic, but I agree with at least part of what I think heavenlysecrets is saying. Some believe we become sinless at the point of repenting and believing. I agree that the righteousness of Christ becomes ours from a legal standpoint. However, that does not mean that we actually become sinless in this life. So, in the final analysis, I believe we find ourselves at the end still completely indebted to the grace of God found in Jesus Christ our Lord. There are no perfect people walking around.
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Fifth Member
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
I believe the whole bible and I think you should know that by now because that is why the bible is our final authority ,
When you make the Bible your final authority you inadvertently confirm that the Bible is not really your final authority because the Bible does nowhere say it is the final authority. You see now?
So, someone apart from the Bible persuaded you to consider the Bible your final authority. In practice, that someone has become your final authority without you knowing it.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
but if it is not someones finl authority there would issues and complications with alot of confusion and false interpretaions!
Only if you choose to ignore the Church. Jesus left us His church, the pillar and ground of truth, and those who rebel against it and refuse to listen to it end up confused – you are right.
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Fifth Member
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Hi Evangelist,
Your last posts shows how much you actually agree with the Catholic Church. I think your problem was not knowing exactly what Catholics believe and teach.
Yeah, there are still some serious disagreements, but we have to recognise that we actually agree much more than what we thought.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
I don't believe ASAS is a whole truth and I also accept what James is teaching in proper contexts which Luther had a problem with grace and works specially when the bible say when there is works there is no more grace and if not taken in proper contexts it looks like the bible or james as such is taken other part of the bible out of contexts in which I know it doesn't.
In proper context the Bible is not against works, it is against works of the law because the law has given way to grace now.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
People, and specially religion make the works seems like the works is moving God but it is the other way around is that God already recieved us without any works and gave us all we need, and we do the works because of what we already have recieved which brings in the uncondition gospel!
There might be religions that make works seem like they are meant to move God. That it is the other way round is exactly what the catholic Church teaches when it talks of unmerited grace.
Please find time and read the Catechism of the Catholic Church – you may find that what you were told about the Catholic Church is not really what the Church teaches.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
religion at large has mixed so much of our work system into our beleef that it seems impossible to have everything without first the work.
That is possible that some religion did that, but the Catholic Church has a clear teaching on the matter.
II. GRACE
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:
More here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
We are brought up this man made concept for so many years of being brain washed into that works system that grace is rejected because it doesn't go by man system of how we have be brain washed to get, or do the do's and don't!
It is possible that there are cults that brain wash their followers the way you describe, but the catholic Church has clear teaching that does not resemble in any way with what you described.
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