Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you
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Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you? And if you cannot, why would God punish you? Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind. That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem. If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you? Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld. Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution. Consider. First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil. In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act. Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm. As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate. Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times. Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct. This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well. Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil. There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition. These links speak to theistic evolution. http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=1205http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEBIf theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin. If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PACan you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you? And if you cannot, why would God punish you? Regards DL Edited by Greatest I am 2 on 08/17/2012 19:08:26
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none of your links you posted work.
Through bigotry prejudices false assumptions & false premises Protestants are protesting a catholic church made up by Protestantism that does not actually exist.
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... reflecting your premise.
If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.
I disagree. Show me otherwise (without youtube links).
"Be good, keep your feet dry, your eyes open, your heart at peace and your soul in the joy of Christ." - Thomas Merton
www.percalamus.com
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quote:
Originally posted by michael
none of your links you posted work.
Oops.
Fixed it.
Regards
DL
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quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
... reflecting your premise.
If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.
I disagree. Show me otherwise (without youtube links).
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEB
Regards
DL
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An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place.
Eve could have resisted the temptation. She could have said "no" to the serpent. All human beings have the capability of committing either good or evil. How would God be to blame for us choosing one nature over the other?
I just do not see how theistic evolution relates directly to original sin. Perhaps your concept of it is different, but evolution does not necessarily concern original sin, much less, does it refute it. I believe some evil is necessary but not all. We have the choice. Nobody is blaming free will. We are blaming the weakness of man. We are to work with what God has given us, and He works with what we give back.
"Be good, keep your feet dry, your eyes open, your heart at peace and your soul in the joy of Christ." - Thomas Merton
www.percalamus.com
Edited by acumenCry on 08/17/2012 20:03:10
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quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place.
Eve could have resisted the temptation. She could have said "no" to the serpent. All human beings have the capability of committing either good or evil. How would God be to blame for us choosing one nature over the other?
I just do not see how theistic evolution relates directly to original sin. Perhaps your concept of it is different, but evolution does not necessarily concern original sin, much less, does it refute it. I believe some evil is necessary but not all. We have the choice. Nobody is blaming free will. We are blaming the weakness of man. We are to work with what God has given us, and He works with what we give back.
Thanks for this. I think you have confirmed my view that we cannot help but sin.
"I believe some evil is necessary"
If necessary as you say, then you have no choice but to do it.
Right?
Regards
DL
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I haven't been placed in jail. Another person has been placed in jail. We both have free will but it would be ridiculous to blame the judge for the man who is in jail especially when my choices did not lead me there.
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If necessary as you say, then you have no choice but to do it.
Right?
No. I believe some things may be necessary for the greater good as a result of the abuse of free will. Things don't have to be done the hard way, but God works with what we give back. This does not negate free will. We are responsible for our actions, not God.
"Be good, keep your feet dry, your eyes open, your heart at peace and your soul in the joy of Christ." - Thomas Merton
www.percalamus.com
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GIA2, I would say that your entire starting point is different from anyone here, which is why we're not going to be able to discuss this issue even using the same terms. Scripture's starting point for why man is under condemnation is not just because he does evil things. His evil actions toward each other are a symptom of a greater evil, which is failing to acknowledge God, give thanks to God, or glorify Him. Here is what Paul said in Romans 1 about why man becomes more and more evil as time passes...
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Actually, I would say that it's likely your entire reason for our existence is the opposite of what anyone here would say. As Paul is saying there, our existence here is about God's glory, not our own. Our problem is not so much that we break a moral law. Our problem is that we refuse to acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He has come in the flesh, that He has died bearing God's wrath that was due to us, and that He has risen and will return. Whoever repents of sin and places faith in Christ is not condemned. He who does not believe is condemned already, because he has rejected God's very Son, to whom belongs all glory and honor.
Adam and Eve had a legitimate choice regarding sin. They chose to rebel against God. They believed a lie rather than the truth. The trusted the word of the enemy and were seeking to exalt themselves to the place of God by seeking to have knowledge equal to His. All who have been born since then have been born guilty of that sin- we have inherited Adam's guilt. When we sin, we do so by nature. But, as Romans 1 says, man is still without excuse.
And as for blaming God, yes, many have done that for centuries. Paul addresses that in Romans 9 by saying that the potter (God) has the right to make from the same lump of clay vessels for honor and dishonor- and that is His right. And we are not to question His right, though a hint is given that God puts up with the sinful and the wicked for the sake of His children, His elect. He bears with the wickedness of man patiently waiting for His own children to come to repent and believe in His Son.
Edited by revcort on 08/18/2012 19:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
I haven't been placed in jail. Another person has been placed in jail. We both have free will but it would be ridiculous to blame the judge for the man who is in jail especially when my choices did not lead me there.
Thanks for not speaking to theistic evolution.
To complicated fort you I guess.
Regards
DL
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quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
If necessary as you say, then you have no choice but to do it.
Right?
No. I believe some things may be necessary for the greater good as a result of the abuse of free will. Things don't have to be done the hard way, but God works with what we give back. This does not negate free will. We are responsible for our actions, not God.
So it is necessary yet wrong and you must do it and take God's punishment for doing something necessary.
Ok.
Do you punish your children for eating to maintain their lives?
Regards
DL
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quote:
Originally posted by revcort
GIA2, I would say that your entire starting point is different from anyone here, which is why we're not going to be able to discuss this issue even using the same terms. Scripture's starting point for why man is under condemnation is not just because he does evil things. His evil actions toward each other are a symptom of a greater evil, which is failing to acknowledge God, give thanks to God, or glorify Him. Here is what Paul said in Romans 1 about why man becomes more and more evil as time passes...
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Actually, I would say that it's likely your entire reason for our existence is the opposite of what anyone here would say. As Paul is saying there, our existence here is about God's glory, not our own. Our problem is not so much that we break a moral law. Our problem is that we refuse to acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He has come in the flesh, that He has died bearing God's wrath that was due to us, and that He has risen and will return. Whoever repents of sin and places faith in Christ is not condemned. He who does not believe is condemned already, because he has rejected God's very Son, to whom belongs all glory and honor.
Adam and Eve had a legitimate choice regarding sin. They chose to rebel against God. They believed a lie rather than the truth. The trusted the word of the enemy and were seeking to exalt themselves to the place of God by seeking to have knowledge equal to His. All who have been born since then have been born guilty of that sin- we have inherited Adam's guilt. When we sin, we do so by nature. But, as Romans 1 says, man is still without excuse.
And as for blaming God, yes, many have done that for centuries. Paul addresses that in Romans 9 by saying that the potter (God) has the right to make from the same lump of clay vessels for honor and dishonor- and that is His right. And we are not to question His right, though a hint is given that God puts up with the sinful and the wicked for the sake of His children, His elect. He bears with the wickedness of man patiently waiting for His own children to come to repent and believe in His Son.
Why did God put the enemy in the garden to lie to A & E?
Regards
DL
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quote:
Why did God put the enemy in the garden to lie to A & E?
Why did your parents send you out to play with other children who could influence you in negative ways?
To exercise your free will? To help you develop right conscience? To teach you consequence for your actions? To help you develop the ability to sacrifice yourself for the benefit of others?
P.S. God prewarned and gave Adam and Eve one Commandment, to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Edited by bwellmysoul on 08/22/2012 12:52:00
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Oh...and then He said to them:
quote:
...for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.
Pretty much like parents who tell their kids to not stick anything into electrical sockets, to not play in the street, etc.
Edited by bwellmysoul on 08/22/2012 13:32:43
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quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Why did God put the enemy in the garden to lie to A & E?
Why did your parents send you out to play with other children who could influence you in negative ways?
To exercise your free will? To help you develop right conscience? To teach you consequence for your actions? To help you develop the ability to sacrifice yourself for the benefit of others?
P.S. God prewarned and gave Adam and Eve one Commandment, to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
IOW. God put Satan there to insure that A & E ate of the tree of knowledge. As above so below so far.
You say a human parent would do this and I agree that it is loadable to educate children and reward them. Not punish them the way God did.
If we have such a happy ending so far, why did God throw a fit and in reality, if we are foolish enough to give reality to this myth, then why punish all the wrong players?
I guess that is what happens when you take a good Jewish myth of a rite of passage and reverse it's accepted interpretation to a fall.
You said could influence. God gave Satan the power to insure they would be influenced. God is not putting A & E with their peers the way you have put your child with other children. This is a supernatural Satan against humans with God assured power to be able to succeed. Have you forgotten that reciprocity is fair play even with analogies?
Regards
DL
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