Baptist, Protestant, and Catholic?
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As an outside observer, I feel free to offer my opinion on a subject where internal bickering does not make me a biased participant. If I may, I propose to change the logo from "Baptist, Protestant, and Catholic" discussion to "Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox" discussion.
There are essentially only two reasons for doing so:
1) Baptists are a sect of the Protestant reformation. There can be no denying this from any unbiased observer. Baptist theology is a modification of Catholic theology with the major reformation issues as the principles of the church, e.g. sola fides; sola scriptura; etc.
2) In doing so, you will have taken a step in allowing the members of Orthodoxy representation, at least in name. The Orthodox churches are not an heretical branch if defined by the Nicene Creed, so there is really no reason for their exclusion. Also, they have a lot longer claim to church history than either Protestantism or Catholicism (although I do not, at this point, wish to debate which sect has the longer claim - Catholicism or Orthodoxy, but clearly it excludes Protestantism).
I think in doing so this website will greatly improve ecumenical relations across the world. Plus, I have an interest in Orthodoxy, and where else am I to go?
Chris Weimer
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Well, Baptists don't believe they're Protestants. Schrack, a Baptist member who posted a while ago, said it was because Baptist was separate in the title, that he posted here.
If you separate Catholic and Orthodox, then many Orthodox will claim you're not considering them to be Catholic!  Catholic doesn't mean East nor West.
"Look on the bright side, if this is the best they've got around here, in six months we'll be running this planet." (Planet of the Apes)
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I suppose, then that you should drop Baptist and Protestant and merely have Catholic, because, after all, Catholicism encompasses all Christianity. :)
I'm not saying that my views have to be enforced, but I wonder what other forumers think?
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I've thought about changing it but really want Protestants (Baptists included) and Catholics (Orthodox included) to know they're both welcome equally unlike on many other boards.
"Look on the bright side, if this is the best they've got around here, in six months we'll be running this planet." (Planet of the Apes)
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What about something along the lines of ecumenical? The Ecumenical Discussion Forum - including Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants-in-denial. ;)
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We're not ecumenical in the Protestant-sense.  That will be a severe turn-off for many Protestants who believe the word is code for "liberal".
"Look on the bright side, if this is the best they've got around here, in six months we'll be running this planet." (Planet of the Apes)
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I came here by searching for "Baptist Catholic Discussion". It would never have crossed my mind to search for "Protestant Catholic Discussion". The word "Protestant" is barely even a part of Baptist vocabulary. But, hey... I'm just one little person. I've got no strong feelings about that part of the name.
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i think it would be great to have some orthodox show up. it might be worth the change if we could get some of them here. i too am very interested in seeing some of the traditions and perspectives of the orthodox.
protestants in denial is a good one. there is a protestants anonymous meeting down the street from my house they could go to. don't worry it's 1611.
mike
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Hey, I just call it like I see it. And I know no one can accuse me of religious bias in this area. I'm neither Catholic nor Baptist! I've always thought it truest that an atheist would be the best judge in a theological debate between the sects. Then again, it might backfire against the winners of the debate...
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Originally posted by mikejuli
protestants in denial is a good one. there is a protestants anonymous meeting down the street from my house they could go to. don't worry it's 1611.
mike
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Weimer
Hey, I just call it like I see it. And I know no one can accuse me of religious bias in this area. I'm neither Catholic nor Baptist! I've always thought it truest that an atheist would be the best judge in a theological debate between the sects. Then again, it might backfire against the winners of the debate...
atheists like you maybe. i have several good friends who are atheists and the same i would say about them. but i have also met quite a few atheists who are just as biased and fanatical as the worse kind of christian.
mike
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Atheists/agnostics are a bit like Christians - they each stand or fall on their own merits. I have more in common with some agnostics than I do with a lot of Christians. I sure enjoy a reasonable and well thought out argument no matter who it comes from.
I totally agree on your observations, Chris. As a non-denom Christian, I never considered myself 'Protestant' - but from an historical perspective you are exactly right. I would add that Orthodox are also 'catholic' in their makeup and premise (which they fully affirm) even more than the various sects are Protestant at their root.
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I entirely agree that some atheists are not to be listened to, being fanatical, biased, prejudiced, and other descriptive adjectives which I won't even bother going into. It's frustrating, really, especially for someone whose primary concern is ancient literature, including biblical, and all certain people can see is what they want to see.
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It is rather amazing that an atheist/agnostic would choose biblical and ancient literature as a field of study - I'm sure it gives you a unique perspective. What is really valuable is if one can clearly understand the other's perspective and not warp it - whether intentional or through ignorance. Have you ever studied the Talmud and it's role in Jewish thought?
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I've tried to study the Talmud, but there are several problems, of course. One is that I'm no where near fluent enough to read Hebrew at that level, and that it's very expensive to buy the Talmud in English (actually, even more expensive to buy it in Hebrew!), and unfortunately the whole Talmud is not online. However, the Talmud is almost out of my scope of study. Mostly it would be useful in comparison of thought between older Judaism, early Christianity, and Rabbinical thought.
Have you studied the Talmud?
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I'm not sure how many volumes there are to the Talmud in total, but I did find much of it online.
The Talmud (10 Volumes)
And here also: The Babylonian Talmud edited by Rabbi Dr. Isidore Epstein
I'm only familiar with certain portions of it and by no means have studied it in any kind of depth. The reason why it is so important is that all the major sects of Judaism hold it to be equal or perhaps more inspired than the Old Testament.
GUIDE TO TEXTS
Kabbalah
Kabbalah means 'Tradition' or 'Transmitted Teachings'. The Kabbalah is the general term for a body of Jewish mystical teachings about the mysteries of God and the universe. The teachings of the Kabbalah are based on the assumption that true knowledge can be achieved only through a certain kind of speculation.. Taken as a whole, the Kabbalah represents a world-view, providing an essentially spiritual way of seeing the world.
The Kabbalah has had a major impact upon Jewish life. Religious life, prayer, textual readings, Halachah (Jewish law), and even messianic movements have all been affected. The most important work of the Kabbalah is the Zohar, which is detailed below.
Zohar
what is it?
The Zohar (Splendour) is the central work of the Kabbalah. The Zohar is not one book, but a complete body of literature which has been united under one title. The Zohar is usually printed in five volumes. The Zohar consists of 21 parts. These parts may be printed in a variety of ways - sometimes a part might be scattered throughout other parts of the Zohar, and sometimes it might exist as a separate volume.
what is it about?
The largest part of the Zohar, which is untitled, is arranged around the sidraot (weekly Torah portions). It consists of a mystical interpretation of the Torah, mixed with statements and stories of Simeon Ben Yochai. It can be quite hard to follow due to its technical language and abrupt manner. Its points are often highly elusive and not to be grasped without close and attentive scrutiny.
The Zohar's teachings combine practically all of the main elements of the Kabbalah. The Zohar contains passages about the 10 Sefirot (Emanations) which flow from God, about the soul, and about Creation. The Zohar also deals with descriptions of heavenly places, contains symbolic interpretations of prayers and ceremonies, and explains an elaborate number and letter mysticism.
Zohar provides a world-view through the doctrine of Sefirot (Emanations). According to the Zohar, G-d is boundless, and cannot be designated by any known attributes. To allow Himself to be known at all, G-d allows 10 Sefirot to flow from Him, giving rise to the Universe. The Sefirot can be observed in the world, and allow us to 'notice' G-d. For adherents of the Kabbalah, this shapes everyday life at the most fundamental level.
where does it come from? who wrote it down?
The Zohar first appeared in Spain at around 1300 CE. It was published by Moses de Leon. Exactly where the Zohar came from is the subject of some disput, however it is commonly ascribed to Simeon Ben Yochai. Simeon Ben Yochai was one of the Tannaim (group of scholars from 400 BCE - 200 CE). He was famed for his mystical tendencies. Some maintain that Simeon Ben Yochai wrote the Zohar, others that the Zohar was merely based upon his teachings. Certainly, the Zohar as a written work was not known until it was published by Moses de Leon.
what do we do with it?
"Our masters taught: Four men entered the Pardes ('Orchard' of mystical teachings), namely Ben Azzai, Ben Zoma, Aher (Elisha Ben Abuyah), and Akiva... Ben Azzai.. died, Ben Zoma.. became demented, Aher [became a heretic]. Rabbi Akiva departed unhurt." - Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Chagigah 14b
The teachings of the Kabbalah have always been e
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