past present and futures sins forgiven VS Penance

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What is the meaning or the effect of penance when our sins are already forgiven??

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Originally posted by mikejuli

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What is the meaning or the effect of penance when our sins are already forgiven??

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because sin affects more than just us. to use an extreme point... if i sin by stealing from someone... and later repent, i will be forgiven. but because i am forgiven it goes without say that i should pay back what i stole. that is penance.. it is a completion of repentance. if a person repents only part of the way then how can they really be forgiven? if i steal and just say "well god will forgive me" that would make the gospel a means to sin, wouldn't it? penance isn't so much about forgiveness as it is about christ working in us to make us perfect. in a way our whole christian life is one of penance... sure we are forgiven but we are also still learning to trust, we are still needing to be purged of things that betray our trust or faith. if we are really interested in forgiveness then we need to complete a penance and know that christ is going to finish what he started.

there is no real difference between the idea of penance and what the bible teaches but more between your ideas and what the bible teaches evan. penance doesn't mean christ didn't die once for all... as a matter of fact it's because of christs salvation that we can have true repentance and penance is a part of repenting. i think you see a problem because you really don't understand either the bible or theology, but i do think that you would agree that if you stole money from someone and then repented but never gave it back then you have not trusted christ at all and therefore never really repented and as such that sin still stands between you and christ.

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Originally posted by jdubya

The way you read Hebrews is like taking a commercial break from the regularly scheduled program, as if the commercials had anything to do with the program content.

Quote EV:
That is the way you see it in the carnal understanding.
If you did a one or two year study and research alone on Hebrews and Romans you will see very clearly I am right, and your spirit will also bear reccord of the truth.

The book of Hebrews speaks nothing of a one time imputation of Christ's righteousness to one's account. The major theme of the book is Christ's ongoing ministry as our high priest and mediator of the New Covenant. This is the basis of our sanctification which is necessary for salvation.
If the snippet of Hebrews 10 that you present shows that are sins are forgiven past, present and future, it makes not only the rest of Hebrews 10, but nearly the entire book full of contradictions and meaningless words.

Quote EVangelist:
The context shows what the author has in mind: the removal of sin (v. 4) and a cleansed conscience (v. 2), so that we can approach God to worship him (v. 1b). The author seems to view all of these as the same basic concept. The old covenant could picture forgiveness, but could not achieve it.

In Christ, we are assured that we have been completely redeemed. His will and his body were given for us, and it was fully effective, once for all time.

Perfect forever

Our acceptance by God does not depend on the performance of rituals (either ancient or modern)—it depends on what Christ has already done, and it is therefore guaranteed.

my source:
http://www.wcg.org/lit/bible/epis/heb10.htm

“Willful sinning” in this passage carries the idea of consciously and deliberately rejecting Christ. To know God’s way, to hear it preached, to study it, to count oneself among the faithful, and then to turn away is to become apostate. Sinning willfully carries with it the idea of sinning continually and deliberately. Such a person does not sin because of ignorance, nor is he carried away by momentary temptations he is too weak to resist. The willful sinner sins because of an established way of thinking and acting which he has no desire to give up. The true believer, on the other hand, is one who lapses into sin and loses temporary fellowship with God. But he will eventually come back to God in repentance because his heavenly Father will continually woo and convict him until he can’t stay away any longer. The true apostate will continue to sin, deliberately, willingly and with abandon. John tells us that “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9).

Apostates have knowledge, but no application of that knowledge. They can be found in the presence of the light of Christ, mostly in the church, among God’s people. Judas Iscariot is the perfect example—he had knowledge but he lacked true faith.

my source above come from:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-10-26.html

I could give many more sources but I'll start with these because they also did their bible study on Hebrews rightly dividing the Word of God.



What does the rest of Hebrews 10 say?


Hbr 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful;
24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.
28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
33 sometimes being publicly exposed to abuse and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.
34 For you had compassion on the prisoners, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.
37 "For yet a little while, and the coming one shall come and shall not tarry;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.

Willful sin will destroy you (send you to hell) and the sacrifice of Christ is no longer effective. You will be worse off than someone who broke the Law of Moses.
He is speaking to those who were sanctified by the blood of Christ already and (according to you) have already had past, present and future sins forgiven, yet they are headed for destruction. This makes your interpretation without any merit whatsoever, and this is from the same Chapter so we have the proper context.

Indeed, these verses and dozens of others in Hebrews make your interpretation impossible.

The sacrifice of Christ was once for eternity, because it is effective for the forgiveness of sins and infinitely superior to the continual sacrifice of bulls and goats.

Christ made the payment for sins. The application of his action on the cross is how we are sanctified and how are sins are forgiven.

He has deposited an infinite sum of grace and mercy to an account with your name on it and it is free for the taking. If you don't make the withdrawals, it is useless.

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Originally posted by acumenCry

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

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Originally posted by jdubya

Don't give me this carnal understanding stuff. That is simply an excuse to interpret and manipulate the bible how ever you want and try to deceive people with your superior 'spiritual' understanding.

I don't care how long one studies Hebrews. If they seek to justify their belief system and replace the clear text with a gnostic spiritual understanding, you could study it forever and still never understand what it says.

God didn't write Hebrews in code. This is exactly what the gnostic heretics tried to peddle with their special knowledge.

So how do you explain Hebrews to someone who doesn't quite get the 'spiritual' code?

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Originally posted by jdubya

Here are two verses that appear to be in conflict. Please show me how you resolve them.

Heb:10:14: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

sanctified here is a present tense participle, not a past tense verb or aorist. The literal translation should be "the ones being sanctified" or "those/them that are being sanctified". Indeed, many bibles use something similar. This is describing a process.

29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

Now sanctified here is an aorist tense verb, indicating a past tense event which means the person in question has already been born again. That is what the author is telling us. According to you, a born again Christian has his sins forgiven past, present and future. Well, not this person. Sounds like a momentary redemption, because this person was born again, and by continual and willful sin, he has fallen from grace and has been condemned to hell. The willful sins are not being forgiven which seems to explode your thesis.

Now its your turn to show me the difference in these two verses.

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Thank you very much for your reply Mike!
You did explain it to me in a way I didn't see , or know penance is work in that way of returning something back.

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Maybe it is my misuderstanding , but can you make it clear how Jesus finished work is uncompleted as you quoted, in which Jesus just only started??

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Also iF I stole something or didn't do what I should I think God would see my heart and it is forgiven unto me or my sin is not imputted to me because of my willingness or motive is to pay back what I stole , but maybe don't have it now to pay back or give back.

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The person might be mad but God instantly forgave and forgotten because He seen my heart, but people are judging on the outward performance and declare it justified when they see the evidence appear, or the fruits of forgiven by giving back what is stollen or broken.

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This is why I mention about eternal redemption of our past , present and future sins forgiven by God by our hearts.

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But a greater too good news is that our born again spirits can't sin or steal, lie, or do evil, neither can anyting from the gates of hell prevail against our born again saved Holy spirits , even our performances or actions or others!

one love

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by jdubya

Here are two verses that appear to be in conflict. Please show me how you resolve them.

Heb:10:14: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

sanctified here is a present tense participle, not a past tense verb or aorist. The literal translation should be "the ones being sanctified" or "those/them that are being sanctified". Indeed, many bibles use something similar. This is describing a process.

29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

Now sanctified here is an aorist tense verb, indicating a past tense event which means the person in question has already been born again. That is what the author is telling us. According to you, a born again Christian has his sins forgiven past, present and future. Well, not this person. Sounds like a momentary redemption, because this person was born again, and by continual and willful sin, he has fallen from grace and has been condemned to hell. The willful sins are not being forgiven which seems to explode your thesis.

Now its your turn to show me the difference in these two verses.

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First of all the text is a past tence showing it is a done deal and the person is sanctified not a process, so the eternal redemption is true in that verse.

the second verse is more a question , but in itself also a staement of truth, like the same in Hebrews 1 showing that God would never make any angel a Son

one love

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