Painting from Almighty God

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Originally posted by jdubya

Recently, in conversations with some friends of Mexican descent, they were lamenting the fact that their children didn't know if they believed in God and wondered what they could do to help bring them back.
The first thing I mentioned to them was personal testimony by example. Did how they live reflect their own personal faith and walk with God through Jesus. I only said this as something for them to ponder. I didn’t ask for answers.
After I left the gathering, I started thinking about things that might speak to a younger generation of jaded doubters and skeptics that are bombarded by an increasingly relativist society that is becoming more hostile to people of faith.
I came to think that maybe some sort of miraculous evidence might be one way to at least get their attention.
Then I recalled something that might speak to this younger crowd and very specifically for those of Mexican/Indian descent. A miracle that was at the center of the conversion of their descendants to Christianity. In fact, the greatest mass conversion to Christ in the history of the world.
I am referring to the story of the Spanish conquest of Mexico and the mass conversion of the native people through a miraculous event - the 1531 apparition of the Blessed Mother to St. Juan Diego and his Tilma with her image that she left behind as evidence.
So I began to research the history behind this apparition. I knew there were some unexplainable details concerning the Tilma, but to my utter amazement, found that the image was really and truly “painted” by God Himself. The Tilma has been subjected to extensive scientific experimentation in recent decades which has only confirmed that it is not made by human hands. The fact that this image exists nearly 500 years later on agave fiber which normally deteriorates completely in 20 years is a miracle in itself. This is just scratching the surface of the inexplicable details.
Skeptics may be able to claim coincidence if we are only talking about a few details, but in the end, they will just put another head shaped dent in the sand and move on to safer ground.
Instead of just rattling off the unexplainable details, I will provide some links:

Brief history and details of the Tilma:
http://www.maryourmother.net/Guadalupe.html

Five part article with photos and scientific results:
http://www.catholic-legate.com/Apologetics/MaryAndTheSaints/Articles/PDF/GuadalupeAcheiropoietos-1.pdf
http://www.catholic-legate.com/Apologetics/MaryAndTheSaints/Articles/PDF/GuadalupeAcheiropoietos-2.pdf
http://www.catholic-legate.com/Apologetics/MaryAndTheSaints/Articles/PDF/GuadalupeAcheiropoietos-3.pdf
http://www.catholic-legate.com/Apologetics/MaryAndTheSaints/Articles/PDF/GuadalupeAcheiropoietos-4.pdf
http://www.catholic-legate.com/Apologetics/MaryAndTheSaints/Articles/PDF/GuadalupeAcheiropoietos-5.pdf

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Originally posted by jdubya

Mary was a demon?
1.) Are you putting limitations on what God can and can not do to bring people to His Son?
2.) He's been bringing people to His Catholic church for 2000 years.
3.) Ho Hum.

How did I know this was coming.
10 million people are led away from the daily practice of mass human sacrifice and led to Christ through Mary.
The devil already had them exactly where he wanted them, so what would be his purpose in even allowing them to believe in Jesus.
Mary did not ask Juan Diego to worship her, but her son and build a house of worship for God. The image left behind depicts Revelation 12:1

But you will say, 'if they really were born again they would go find a pentacostal church'. Well they didn't have that option, Pentacostals didn't come around until almost 400 years later (20th century) in the USA.

You are just jealous that Mary converts more hearts to her son than you could even dream of. Your un-Christian tactics will only turn people away from Christ.

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Originally posted by jdubya

I see, He can only use your pre-approved instruments.
Of course Jesus is the only way to the Father. What does that have to do with what event or person (i.e. instrument) helped lead you to Jesus?

Yes the devil really had a challenge. He wasn't satisfied with them just sacrificing humans every day, he wanted them to know about Jesus and build a church to worship Jesus and an image that depicted Revelation 12:1. That old tricky devil wanted them even closer to himself in the Catholic Church right?

Anyone with half a brain can trace the Catholic Church back to the apostles. Those who read or watch too many cartoons and believe in fairy tales may not be able to. You can't find a Prot of any kind (much less a Pentacostal) among those who were directly taught by the apostles. Their writings are there for anyone to see. You can even find them on Protestant websites.

Pentacostals did not exist at Pentacost. They confiscated an abridged version of the Christian bible and 1900 years later said let's play make believe like we're at Pentacost. Then lets claim we are the same church that was born on Pentacost. Thats true Pentacostal history, born from the Methodist Holiness movement (none who spoke in tongues), which was a spinoff of John Wesley (neither Wesley of any of his followers spoke in tongues or fell down on a stage), who spun off from the Anglican church (certainly no tongue speakers there), which was founded by King Henry VIII, who broke from the Catholic Church to start a national religion to appeal to his personal sinful desires.

What you are saying is don't believe true history, just believe in G4's fairy tale history because I say so.

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Originally posted by God4me

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Originally posted by jdubya

I see, He can only use your pre-approved instruments.
Of course Jesus is the only way to the Father. What does that have to do with what event or person (i.e. instrument) helped lead you to Jesus?

Yes the devil really had a challenge. He wasn't satisfied with them just sacrificing humans every day, he wanted them to know about Jesus and build a church to worship Jesus and an image that depicted Revelation 12:1. That old tricky devil wanted them even closer to himself in the Catholic Church right?

Anyone with half a brain can trace the Catholic Church back to the apostles. Those who read or watch too many cartoons and believe in fairy tales may not be able to. You can't find a Prot of any kind (much less a Pentacostal) among those who were directly taught by the apostles. Their writings are there for anyone to see. You can even find them on Protestant websites.

Pentacostals did not exist at Pentacost. They confiscated an abridged version of the Christian bible and 1900 years later said let's play make believe like we're at Pentacost. Then lets claim we are the same church that was born on Pentacost. Thats true Pentacostal history, born from the Methodist Holiness movement (none who spoke in tongues), which was a spinoff of John Wesley (neither Wesley of any of his followers spoke in tongues or fell down on a stage), who spun off from the Anglican church (certainly no tongue speakers there), which was founded by King Henry VIII, who broke from the Catholic Church to start a national religion to appeal to his personal sinful desires.

What you are saying is don't believe true history, just believe in G4's fairy tale history because I say so.

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1)If Jesus is the only way to God, [Which you agree with], Why would God use Mary???..WAKE UP.

2)Anyone with half a brain would trace the catholic church back to the Apostles, But anyone with a full brain knows that the catholics wasn't formed until at least 300--600 years later.
I guess you only have half a brain.

3)The first Apostles and diciples were pentecostal, And the Pentecostal Church has been going ever since.
If You check out the TRUR Church history, You see that is a fact.

4)Your only jelous because you know Christians are the True Church, And catholics are just a man made false religion Formed by men who want to deceive people into a false hope.

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Originally posted by jdubya

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Originally posted by God4me

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Originally posted by jdubya

I see, He can only use your pre-approved instruments.
Of course Jesus is the only way to the Father. What does that have to do with what event or person (i.e. instrument) helped lead you to Jesus?

Yes the devil really had a challenge. He wasn't satisfied with them just sacrificing humans every day, he wanted them to know about Jesus and build a church to worship Jesus and an image that depicted Revelation 12:1. That old tricky devil wanted them even closer to himself in the Catholic Church right?

Anyone with half a brain can trace the Catholic Church back to the apostles. Those who read or watch too many cartoons and believe in fairy tales may not be able to. You can't find a Prot of any kind (much less a Pentacostal) among those who were directly taught by the apostles. Their writings are there for anyone to see. You can even find them on Protestant websites.

Pentacostals did not exist at Pentacost. They confiscated an abridged version of the Christian bible and 1900 years later said let's play make believe like we're at Pentacost. Then lets claim we are the same church that was born on Pentacost. Thats true Pentacostal history, born from the Methodist Holiness movement (none who spoke in tongues), which was a spinoff of John Wesley (neither Wesley of any of his followers spoke in tongues or fell down on a stage), who spun off from the Anglican church (certainly no tongue speakers there), which was founded by King Henry VIII, who broke from the Catholic Church to start a national religion to appeal to his personal sinful desires.

What you are saying is don't believe true history, just believe in G4's fairy tale history because I say so.

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1)If Jesus is the only way to God, [Which you agree with], Why would God use Mary???..WAKE UP.

2)Anyone with half a brain would trace the catholic church back to the Apostles, But anyone with a full brain knows that the catholics wasn't formed until at least 300--600 years later.
I guess you only have half a brain.

3)The first Apostles and diciples were pentecostal, And the Pentecostal Church has been going ever since.
If You check out the TRUR Church history, You see that is a fact.

4)Your only jelous because you know Christians are the True Church, And catholics are just a man made false religion Formed by men who want to deceive people into a false hope.

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Do you believe that anyone was brought to Christ through Paul's ministry? Through Peter's and John's ministry? Through the early martyrs? Through miracles? Through just about every means imaginable? I don't know of many cases where native tribes were just zapped by Jesus and spontaneously began believing.
Mary didn't ask these natives to worship her, but to build a church to worship her Son. There was nothing demonic in her message. Nothing contrary to the Christian faith. In fact the image depicts a passage from the bible:

Rev 12:1 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
Rev 12:2 she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.

In the image Mary is with child and gazing down at her womb with her hands folded in prayer. She is enveloped in the light of the sun, standing on a crescent moon with the Corona Borealis (the Borean Crown) constellation at her head. The stars in the sky as they appeared that morning of Dec. 12, 1531 are emblazoned on the tilma. Incredibly they do not appear from an earthly perspective, but as seen from heaven.

Recent studies of these stellar constellations and their position on the tilma provide much more biblical symbolism.
For instance, the constellation Virgo is near her heart symbolizing purity and the constellation Leo (the lion) near her abdomen is symbolic of Christ in her womb as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. These only scratch the surface.
More can be found at:
http://catholicintl.com/index.php/component/content/article/62-mary-and-the-saints/179-new-discoveries-of-the-constellations-on-the-tilma-of-our-lady-of-guadalupe

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Originally posted by jdubya

As far as Pentacostal and Catholic history, your view apparently fits one of your religion's mottos: "Name it and claim it".
That is all you have done and all you can do, because you can't prove it by any kind of hard evidence. The best you can do is claim a hidden church of Pentacostals which is a cop out that other groups use as a one size fits all, cover your assets argument based on nothing more than wishful thinking. Others say the church went into total apostasy as soon as the last apostle died.

Unfortunately neither of these positions are biblical. If these desparate attempts at explaining their missing churches were true, then the city on the hill was hidden under a basket and the gates of hell did prevail against the church.

I gave you the basic lineage of modern Pentacostals. If you have something different, then share it or stop making it up. How can anyone believe your assertions if you just name it and claim it.

Same goes for the 2000 year history of the Catholic Church. You keep claiming a date that has nothing to back it up. We've provided evidence that the earliest Christians indeed practiced their faith like Catholics. Their belief in baptismal regeneration, the Eucharist as sacrifice and the body and blood of Christ. The church of Rome as the pre-eminent church with which all others must agree. The list goes on and on of beliefs and practices that you virulently object to.

So again, either provide evidence to the contrary or admit that you are just exercising "name it, claim it".

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Go on the internet and you'll find the true history of both the Christian Church and the catholic church.

And you'll see that I am right.

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Originally posted by God4me


Go on the internet and you'll find the true history of both the Christian Church and the catholic church.

And you'll see that I am right.

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