Prayers for the dead
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Why do catholics light candles for the dead, And why do they say prayers for the dead.And why do they do penance/works for the dead.Does anyone know??.
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quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
The spread of Christianity can be traced by the veneration of saints and relics. They worshipped among the dead in the catacombs, wrote inscriptions on graves of the departed asking for their intercession and collected their relics.
Some will ignorantly suggest that this was paganism creeping into the church from the earliest days. The problem with this is that pagans practiced a complete separation of the dead and the living. The dead were buried outside of the city. Out of sight, out of mind. This was pretty much a universal understanding which put a chasm between life and death.
The question then is, if there was no prior practice of this in the ancient world, where did this practice come from?
It came directly from Christianity, evident from the earliest days. The understanding and practice developed over time.
It also has roots in Judaism, where the Jews prayed and still do pray for their dead. This is evident in Maccabees which also speaks of the resurrection. Whether some reject Maccabees as scriptural doesn't discount it's historical evidence prior to the coming of Jesus Christ.
We also see the power of the bones of Elisha the prophet in 2Kings 13:21 bringing a man back from the dead.
Then in Revelation, we have the prayers of the saints in the possession of the elders and angels being offered before the throne of God (Rev. 5:8, 8:4).
If someone continues to push the pagan origins, maybe we should compare which groups are more closely aligned with actual pagan customs of total separation of dead and living.
WAKE UP GORMLESS. There were lots of false religious groups in those days, There were lots of false religions who professed to be Christians, But they weren't.
As you say, Asking the departed to make intercession for them had it's roots in Judaism and some false Christian groups accepted the false teaching.
If praying to the departed saints, And getting them to make intercession for us was a true doctrine, It would be in the God inspired Bible as we have it today.
That is why we know the book of Maccabees isn't God inspired, If it was there would be a lot about it in the Bible, But there is nothing.
But catholics misquote scriptures to fit their evil doctrines.
Rev 5: 8. & Rev 8: 4 doesn't say the saints in heaven are interceeding for us, Or we are praying to them, DO THEY???
THAT IS JUST ANOTHER CATHOLIC LIE.
How can you fall for such nonsense??..OH yes, Because you believe the catholic con-men and the pope's porkies.
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quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
Somebody please play the tune from jeapardy for g4. I'm still waiting for an answer and time is running out.
http://minmaxsunt.wordpress.com/2012/03/11/via-crucis/
Answear to what???
anything. please join in our discussions g4. do something other than piss and moan about the pope or missed heaven mike or whatever other act of blaming others you constantly use here. the only think you have successfully proved is that you don't know anything. 
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All you have is man made religious rituals, And you have to have them because there is no relationship with God, If you had a relationship with God, You would know you wouldn't need man made religious rituals.
catholics aren't the body of Christ..STOP TELLING LIES.
This is not a reply, it is a temper tantrum. If the truth is that bitter then stick to pablum.
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quote:
WAKE UP GORMLESS. There were lots of false religious groups in those days,
quote:
There were lots of false religions who professed to be Christians, But they weren't.
Yes, and they were readily identified as heretics. John, Paul, and St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote about them. They were, broadly put, Gnostics. They believed that everything up there is good, and everything down here is bad. So they didn't believe in prayers for the dead either.
quote:
As you say, Asking the departed to make intercession for them had it's roots in Judaism and some false Christian groups accepted the false teaching.
What you are saying is that Judaism is false.
quote:
If praying to the departed saints, And getting them to make intercession for us was a true doctrine, It would be in the God inspired Bible as we have it today.
It is, but even it were not, it would still be true. The Doctrine of the Communion of Saints and the practice of praying for the dead predate the canon of the Bible. The evidence is there if you want to see it.
quote:
That is why we know the book of Maccabees isn't God inspired, If it was there would be a lot about it in the Bible, But there is nothing.
Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.
John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.
Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.
Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness
Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.
Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.
Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.
quote:
Rev 5: 8. & Rev 8: 4 doesn't say the saints in heaven are interceeding for us, Or we are praying to them, DO THEY???
Yes, they do. It may be why Luther wanted to throw out Revelation from the Bible.
Edited by kepha on 03/22/2012 18:26:40
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i think it's just a way to find a kind of concret thing to be in contact with God! but that must be just for beginners as the same at primary school where children need basic things to know numbers for exemple but once in high school you no longer need that and you will be able to even do equations with many unknown numbers
thanks alot for accepting me in this interrresting website!
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When a person's body dies, their eternal soul does not.
Lighting a Candle in the darkness is our earthly attempt at soul to soul communication through Jesus Christ.
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Stocklii, kepha, welcome.
I disagree, stocklii. It is the opposite.
Sticking with the school metaphor, The Saints are like upper classmen who have already graduated from the school of life. We can learn from them.
"Be good, keep your feet dry, your eyes open, your heart at peace and your soul in the joy of Christ." - Thomas Merton
www.percalamus.com
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quote:
Originally posted by kepha
quote:
All you have is man made religious rituals, And you have to have them because there is no relationship with God, If you had a relationship with God, You would know you wouldn't need man made religious rituals.
catholics aren't the body of Christ..STOP TELLING LIES.
This is not a reply, it is a temper tantrum. If the truth is that bitter then stick to pablum.
Go back to sleep dozy
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quote:
Originally posted by kepha
quote:
WAKE UP GORMLESS. There were lots of false religious groups in those days,
quote:
There were lots of false religions who professed to be Christians, But they weren't.
Yes, and they were readily identified as heretics. John, Paul, and St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote about them. They were, broadly put, Gnostics. They believed that everything up there is good, and everything down here is bad. So they didn't believe in prayers for the dead either.
quote:
As you say, Asking the departed to make intercession for them had it's roots in Judaism and some false Christian groups accepted the false teaching.
What you are saying is that Judaism is false.
quote:
If praying to the departed saints, And getting them to make intercession for us was a true doctrine, It would be in the God inspired Bible as we have it today.
It is, but even it were not, it would still be true. The Doctrine of the Communion of Saints and the practice of praying for the dead predate the canon of the Bible. The evidence is there if you want to see it.
quote:
That is why we know the book of Maccabees isn't God inspired, If it was there would be a lot about it in the Bible, But there is nothing.
Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.
John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.
Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.
Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness
Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.
Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.
Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.
quote:
Rev 5: 8. & Rev 8: 4 doesn't say the saints in heaven are interceeding for us, Or we are praying to them, DO THEY???
Yes, they do. It may be why Luther wanted to throw out Revelation from the Bible.
1)Judaism isn't Christianity and Judaism's teachings are the same as Christian teachings..WAKE UP DOZY.
2)The doctrine of praying for the dead isn't a Christian Bible teaching and it isn't true..
If it isn't in the Bible, [Which it isn't] How can it be true???.YOU REALLY ARE DOZY..AREN'T YOU.
If it is in the Bible..SHOW ME.
3)Just because there is some truth in the book of, Macc, It doesn't mean it is God inspired, The devil puts some truth in all false religions..WAKE UP DOZY.
I have seen some quotes from the book of Macc, And they aren't suported by the Bible.
For instance, 1Cor 15: 29 isn't making a doctrine out of baptising for the dead. It is that there was a group of people who were practising baptisms for the dead, And Paul was just saying to them If there is no resurrection, Why do you baptise for the dead.
4)Rev 5: 8. & Rev 8: 4. does not say the departed saints were prying for us, Or we were praying to them..STOP TELLING LIES AND GO BACK TO SLEEP DOZY.
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quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
When a person's body dies, their eternal soul does not.
Lighting a Candle in the darkness is our earthly attempt at soul to soul communication through Jesus Christ.
When a catholic dies, Their soul goes to hell as you'll find out when you die, There is no such place as purgatory, The Bible only mentions heaven and hell.
No amount of candle lighting will do anything, It is just the catholic way of making money.
It is to late once a person dies, They either go to heaven, [If they are a Christian], Or to hell [if they are a catholic or any other kind of sinner].
Your problem is, You believe the catholic canon's rather than the Bible.
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quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
Stocklii, kepha, welcome.
I disagree, stocklii. It is the opposite.
Sticking with the school metaphor, The Saints are like upper classmen who have already graduated from the school of life. We can learn from them.
True Biblical Saints are the born again Christians, And we will always be learning and we will keep on learning until we get to heaven.
You are so right, catholic can learn from us Christians..The trouble is, YOU DON'T.
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quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
Stocklii, kepha, welcome.
I disagree, stocklii. It is the opposite.
Sticking with the school metaphor, The Saints are like upper classmen who have already graduated from the school of life. We can learn from them.
True Biblical Saints are the born again Christians, And we will always be learning and we will keep on learning until we get to heaven.
You are so right, catholic can learn from us Christians..The trouble is, YOU DON'T.
Ahh, yes, because you are the perfect role model.
"Be good, keep your feet dry, your eyes open, your heart at peace and your soul in the joy of Christ." - Thomas Merton
www.percalamus.com
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quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
Stocklii, kepha, welcome.
I disagree, stocklii. It is the opposite.
Sticking with the school metaphor, The Saints are like upper classmen who have already graduated from the school of life. We can learn from them.
True Biblical Saints are the born again Christians, And we will always be learning and we will keep on learning until we get to heaven.
You are so right, catholic can learn from us Christians..The trouble is, YOU DON'T.
Ahh, yes, because you are the perfect role model.
Thanks. It look like at least one catholic is waking up.
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quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
Stocklii, kepha, welcome.
I disagree, stocklii. It is the opposite.
Sticking with the school metaphor, The Saints are like upper classmen who have already graduated from the school of life. We can learn from them.
True Biblical Saints are the born again Christians, And we will always be learning and we will keep on learning until we get to heaven.
You are so right, catholic can learn from us Christians..The trouble is, YOU DON'T.
Ahh, yes, because you are the perfect role model.
Thanks. It look like at least one catholic is waking up.
Yes, your lame, repetitive accusations did put me to sleep for a bit. 
Anyways, no, you are not a good role model. You actually remind me of that old comic strip - "Donny and Doofus" or something like that - in which these two brothers would give examples of how to and how not to act. It would portray the first brother doing something correctly like refilling the toilet paper holder after he had used the last sheet. Then it would switch to "Doofus" who set an example of what not to do. It would show him in the bathroom doing something crazy like stuffing paper down the toilet and poking holes in the ceiling with a plunger.
Guess which brother you reflect (HINT: "Donny" represents the Catholic saints and all those who obey Christ).
"Be good, keep your feet dry, your eyes open, your heart at peace and your soul in the joy of Christ." - Thomas Merton
www.percalamus.com
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