1 John1:9 is so misunderstood by many churches
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1Jo:1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.This is sins of many plural sins and again what happen if you forget a sin or two, even sins of things we should have done and didn't??I think this more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 12/05/2011 09:52:01
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Are you sure you aren't embellishing, reading back the current media frenzy into your memories and just piling on? I was an altar boy and never was aware of any advances. Maybe that's because the odds of such are lower in the church than in the general population including among Protestant ministers.
The whole thing about unmarried priests is a red herring. There is no relationship between abuse and unmarried status. In fact, statistics show the opposite. Those who claim to be Christians should be very careful to know facts before making false accusations. Now I know G4 can't help himself, but you should know better.
Those who chose celibacy do so freely and Jesus recommended it to those who could do so for the Kingdom of God. Paul also said it was a better way. Revelation says that the 144,000 in heaven with the seal of God on their foreheads were chaste men who have not defiled themselves with women. Hmmmmm. Sounds like your carnal thinking trumps the word of God again. 
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Evangelist did previously menion being in a Catholic School and being physically abused when he acted up (the reason he was sent there in the first place).
In school settings, abuse can happen. Even in public schools as well as private schools and schools run by monks and nuns. Of course, even in such settings it is not so rampant that every school would experience this.
I never saw this myself as a child - I was aware of parents abusing their own children and others. And a male skating instructor too. But not one of the priests that I had ever known had ever abused anyone.
But jdubya is right. Celebacy is not the cause. There have been far more married abusers than celebate abusers. And the problem has been as much or more of a problem in state run schools.
It wasn't that long ago that a teacher nominated as "Teacher of the Year" was arrested for sexting to a student. Another teacher left his wife and kids to marry one of his students, but she left him when she found out he was doing her class mates too.
The Boy Scouts have had numerous problems with young boys in their care being molested at camp and elsewhere.
Satan has sought to enter the Church and seeks every opportunity. That is why the laity must pray for their priests to help them stay protected.
What happened in the 60's, plus or minus a few decades, was the sexual revolution. And this led to problems in the Catholic seminaries and elsewhere. Sin took root. And those that yeilded to it have spread sin to places it should never be.
Evangelist, none of the Protestant Churches survived this unscathed. Many faired worse, but their smaller numbers and lesser significance kept them below the radar for the national and international news services.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 06/08/2012 12:07:22
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Originally posted by jdubya
Are you sure you aren't embellishing, reading back the current media frenzy into your memories and just piling on? I was an altar boy and never was aware of any advances. Maybe that's because the odds of such are lower in the church than in the general population including among Protestant ministers.
The whole thing about unmarried priests is a red herring. There is no relationship between abuse and unmarried status. In fact, statistics show the opposite. Those who claim to be Christians should be very careful to know facts before making false accusations. Now I know G4 can't help himself, but you should know better.
Those who chose celibacy do so freely and Jesus recommended it to those who could do so for the Kingdom of God. Paul also said it was a better way. Revelation says that the 144,000 in heaven with the seal of God on their foreheads were chaste men who have not defiled themselves with women. Hmmmmm. Sounds like your carnal thinking trumps the word of God again.
SORRY but I am not a JW!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Evangelist did previously menion being in a Catholic School and being physically abused when he acted up (the reason he was sent there in the first place).
In school settings, abuse can happen. Even in public schools as well as private schools and schools run by monks and nuns. Of course, even in such settings it is not so rampant that every school would experience this.
I never saw this myself as a child - I was aware of parents abusing their own children and others. And a male skating instructor too. But not one of the priests that I had ever known had ever abused anyone.
But jdubya is right. Celebacy is not the cause. There have been far more married abusers than celebate abusers. And the problem has been as much or more of a problem in state run schools.
It wasn't that long ago that a teacher nominated as "Teacher of the Year" was arrested for sexting to a student. Another teacher left his wife and kids to marry one of his students, but she left him when she found out he was doing her class mates too.
The Boy Scouts have had numerous problems with young boys in their care being molested at camp and elsewhere.
Satan has sought to enter the Church and seeks every opportunity. That is why the laity must pray for their priests to help them stay protected.
What happened in the 60's, plus or minus a few decades, was the sexual revolution. And this led to problems in the Catholic seminaries and elsewhere. Sin took root. And those that yeilded to it have spread sin to places it should never be.
Evangelist, none of the Protestant Churches survived this unscathed. Many faired worse, but their smaller numbers and lesser significance kept them below the radar for the national and international news services.
We sick sinful people all over the world and in every branch on earth as such , but I do remember so much of this started even when I was a cub scout and boy scout latter to be heard , but when these poor kid said anything about it , it was like a fairy tale story of being sexual abused, so the leaders did get away with murder as such!
more even in the church with pastor ,priest and bishops!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Actually, more so outside. Most priests have been faithful to their vows.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Are you sure you aren't embellishing, reading back the current media frenzy into your memories and just piling on? I was an altar boy and never was aware of any advances. Maybe that's because the odds of such are lower in the church than in the general population including among Protestant ministers.
The whole thing about unmarried priests is a red herring. There is no relationship between abuse and unmarried status. In fact, statistics show the opposite. Those who claim to be Christians should be very careful to know facts before making false accusations. Now I know G4 can't help himself, but you should know better.
Those who chose celibacy do so freely and Jesus recommended it to those who could do so for the Kingdom of God. Paul also said it was a better way. Revelation says that the 144,000 in heaven with the seal of God on their foreheads were chaste men who have not defiled themselves with women. Hmmmmm. Sounds like your carnal thinking trumps the word of God again.
SORRY but I am not a JW!
one love
LOL, I think I know that. The point wasn't to say that only 144,000 get to go to heaven, but the 144,000 in Revelation are chaste men who have not defiled themselves with women.
I asked two JW women about this. They said the 144,000 was literal, but the chaste men was figurative. They admitted that the list of 144,000 is already full, so they couldn't go to heaven, but only inherit the new glorious earth.
Nevertheless, the bible has a very high view of celibacy, whether you acknowledge it or not.
Edited by jdubya on 06/10/2012 22:01:09
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Actually, more so outside. Most priests have been faithful to their vows.
But thing would work even better if they be faithful to thier born again spirits if they are born again as being righteous and holy as they are before God, and they can't do such things!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Originally posted by bwellmysoul
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Originally posted by evangelist
Then who do you believe as the final authority and final truth , the apostle or the bible??
M't:5:27: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
M't:5:28: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
M't:5:29: And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
M't:5:30: And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
So should we be obedient children of God and become a saint by plucking out our eyes when we lust after a person?
The same wrong interpretaion or religious works can be also said about eating Christ literally in a catholic eucharist!
one love
Starving and confused lambs and sheep.
This is what happens when a denomination removes itself from what the Apostles taught - from what the Early Church learned from the Apostles - and from what the Early Church established in the Catholic Church - and she continued by way of Sacred Tradition for 2,000 years.
Evangelist, protestantism has hardened your heart.
Sacred Scripture records the importance of converts knowing that Christ embodied the bread.
What and who the Early Church was (Catholic or Protestant) is available online for all to read.
1Jo:2:26: These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jo:2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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So John should not have written this epistle? Why was he teaching them?
Most of the bible is used to teach Christians. Should we then say that once they got saved and received the Holy Ghost, we no longer need to be taught by any man? Haven't you called yourself a teacher and evangelist? Did the apostles stop teaching people after they got saved and received the annointing? Clearly not.
Thus, there is a problem with you once again plucking a couple verses out of their proper context.
In this case John is warning them about false teachers. Those who left us and therefore were never of us(v. 19). Those who deny that Jesus is the Christ and who deny the Father and the Son - AntiChrists (v. 22-23).
This particular heresy was called Docetism. They taught that Jesus did not really come in the flesh, but only "seemed" to be human.
John trusts that his readers will hold to what they were taught from the beginning (about who Jesus was) and not follow those who left them and taught a different "spirit only" Jesus.
We are also told throughout 1John who has this kind of annointing. It isn't an automated gift that you get just by accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. The Docetists also accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. So do the "Jesus Only" United Pentacostals. Do they have the annointing and therefore need no teachers?
The entire epistle of 1John shows us how we can know that we have this annointing. Here is a list just from Chapter 2:
Confessing sins to God - 1John1:9 and here:
1Jo 2:1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
1Jo 2:3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1Jo 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
1Jo 2:6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
1Jo 2:9 He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still.
1Jo 2:10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling.
1Jo 2:11 But he who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1Jo 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If any one loves the world, love for the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passes away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides for ever.
1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.
1Jo 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that every one who does right is born of him.
All this just from the same chapter and it continues throughout this epistle. Much of this you have dismissed as optional or simply fruits, while John says these are essential to know that you are born of God and abide in Him and therefore have this annointing.
Just so I am not misunderstanding your beliefs, please explain what you think these verses mean? Then, in light of these verses, you can attempt to tell us what it means to have no need to be taught by others.
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quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
So John should not have written this epistle? Why was he teaching them?
Most of the bible is used to teach Christians. Should we then say that once they got saved and received the Holy Ghost, we no longer need to be taught by any man? Haven't you called yourself a teacher and evangelist? Did the apostles stop teaching people after they got saved and received the annointing? Clearly not.
Thus, there is a problem with you once again plucking a couple verses out of their proper context.
In this case John is warning them about false teachers. Those who left us and therefore were never of us(v. 19). Those who deny that Jesus is the Christ and who deny the Father and the Son - AntiChrists (v. 22-23).
This particular heresy was called Docetism. They taught that Jesus did not really come in the flesh, but only "seemed" to be human.
John trusts that his readers will hold to what they were taught from the beginning (about who Jesus was) and not follow those who left them and taught a different "spirit only" Jesus.
We are also told throughout 1John who has this kind of annointing. It isn't an automated gift that you get just by accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. The Docetists also accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. So do the "Jesus Only" United Pentacostals. Do they have the annointing and therefore need no teachers?
The entire epistle of 1John shows us how we can know that we have this annointing. Here is a list just from Chapter 2:
Confessing sins to God - 1John1:9 and here:
1Jo 2:1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
1Jo 2:3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1Jo 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
1Jo 2:6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
1Jo 2:9 He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still.
1Jo 2:10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling.
1Jo 2:11 But he who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1Jo 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If any one loves the world, love for the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passes away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides for ever.
1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.
1Jo 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that every one who does right is born of him.
All this just from the same chapter and it continues throughout this epistle. Much of this you have dismissed as optional or simply fruits, while John says these are essential to know that you are born of God and abide in Him and therefore have this annointing.
Just so I am not misunderstanding your beliefs, please explain what you think these verses mean? Then, in light of these verses, you can attempt to tell us what it means to have no need to be taught by others.
Because our born again spirit knows all things, but yes our minds and bodies need to be retaught as such !
It is like you saying the holy Spirit needs the apostles to know the truth and learn, or Jesus needs to learn and be taught to have the truth and wisdom!
that is why the bible also says we have the mind of Christ and that doesn't need men teaching because it bears perfect wisdom to the truth!
Do you know our born again spirit doesn't need food like our mind and body!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 06/11/2012 09:04:48
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Our spirit indeed needs food. It needs to be fed by the Holy Spirit of God. Our spirit in turn animates and informs our minds and bodies and teaches us to be Holy. The body without the spirit is dead.
We are still one person consisting of body and spirit.
Jesus did not come as just a spirit. That is the heresy to which John was addressing.
Faith has shown you this over and over again with lots of scripture and common sense.
Again, please explain those verses in 1John 2 that I listed in light of your teaching. I want to see your desire to follow the written word which you claim is your final authority. Can your born again spirit follow the commandments while your body and mind do not? Isn't John speaking of the entire person? Does it not say that everyone who does right is the one who is born again?
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quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Our spirit indeed needs food. It needs to be fed by the Holy Spirit of God. Our spirit in turn animates and informs our minds and bodies and teaches us to be Holy. The body without the spirit is dead.
We are still one person consisting of body and spirit.
Jesus did not come as just a spirit. That is the heresy to which John was addressing.
Faith has shown you this over and over again with lots of scripture and common sense.
Again, please explain those verses in 1John 2 that I listed in light of your teaching. I want to see your desire to follow the written word which you claim is your final authority. Can your born again spirit follow the commandments while your body and mind do not? Isn't John speaking of the entire person? Does it not say that everyone who does right is the one who is born again?
First of all you need to know your born again spirit stays under every commandment just like the Holy Spirit.
Your born again spirit is the nature and mind of Christ so how can it sin ?
The only way you can say it sins is to say Jesus gas also sinned!
To say the born again spirit needs to be fed something is like you claiming the Holy Spirit need to be feed!
I showed you all scripture our spirit is one with Christ period, and that is why it has eternal redemption now, and will remain exactly that way untill eternalty!
Even when we are in heaven it will remain the exact say way as it is on earth now even in heaven before God and all the angels!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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The answer to your statement is evident.
"Your born again spirit is the nature and mind of Christ so how can it sin ?"
The humanity in the word "Your" is the clue.
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Jesus sinned in neither spirit or body. Our spirit is not the Holy Spirit.
What I see is warmed over gnosticism. Separating man into parts that are disconnected rather that seeing us as a whole person.
Jesus didn't have a divine part and a human part. He was fully human and fully God making up a fully divine human person.
In a way, I understand what you are saying, but you go to the extreme to the point of separating the person into parts. It is the spirit that gives life. God breaths life into every person. That is what separates us from animals. When God gives us a new spirit and sends His Holy Spirit to reside within our souls, our bodies and minds usually lag behind. Paul illustrates this pretty well in Romans 7. But then he goes right into Romans 8 showing that the spirit can overcome this inclination to sin. And if your spirit is open to the grace poured out by the Holy Spirit, we will not sin intentionally.
There is a real difference between true transformation of the entire person and this almost make believe, mislabeling of a person as righteous (because Jesus is righteous). The first is biblical, and the latter is the invention of a couple of Europeans in the 16th century.
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quote:
What I see is warmed over gnosticism...
I've often wondered about that myself - in particular Evangelist's expressed rejection of reconciliation as a necessary step toward mature Christianity.
That and his belief that unrepentant personal sin has no penalty in relationship to Christ's judgement of souls.
His belief seems to be that all people proceed from birth in the Holy Spirit to immediate full awareness.
And if one doesn't do that then there are three available options:
either the Baptised Christian really wasn't "born again",
or only some sin applies toward damnation,
or the Holy Spirit innoculates a soul from eternal damnation (allow a body/soul to safely waller in sin).
In marketing, there is an acronym TOMA (top of the mind awareness). And, in Christianity that should hold true as well. As Scripture says, "pray always" to remain connected to the Holy Spirit.
In practical application, people filled with the Holy Spirit don't "pray always" and Christians will and do sin intentionally as part of their personal character. Poor decision making skills override the encouragement and guidance given by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
And besides, acheiving guidance through the Holy Spirit must first be perceived and then it must be received. People selectively determine amounts, application and receptivitity.
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