1 John1:9 is so misunderstood by many churches
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1Jo:1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.This is sins of many plural sins and again what happen if you forget a sin or two, even sins of things we should have done and didn't??I think this more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 12/05/2011 09:52:01
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Originally posted by evangelist
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Actually, more so outside. Most priests have been faithful to their vows.
But thing would work even better if they be faithful to thier born again spirits if they are born again as being righteous and holy as they are before God, and they can't do such things!
one love
IF we are faithful to the covenant that we entered into with Christ, then we won't do such things.
But the fact that they did do such things proves that their born again spirits were not fully renewed. If they had been, then they would have remained righteous and Holy.
All Christians are called to be righteous and Holy and through Christ this is possible, not just in spirit, but in truth.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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And Evangelist, Christ's NATURE is Divine. He is GOD. You are not.
Christ also has a human nature - flesh and blood man. Just like you. Jesus never sinned in the flesh and you are called to be just like Him in that respect.
But do not blaspheme and suggest that you are divine also - that would make you a Mormon.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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For God is Spirit, so those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth."
John 4:24
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you:
Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Romans 12:3
...think of yourself with sober judgement, with sober judgement, with sober judgement....
Hum....
St. Paul is calling his congregation to reconciliation against a set standard of conduct.
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
And Evangelist, Christ's NATURE is Divine. He is GOD. You are not.
Christ also has a human nature - flesh and blood man. Just like you. Jesus never sinned in the flesh and you are called to be just like Him in that respect.
But do not blaspheme and suggest that you are divine also - that would make you a Mormon.
In my born again spirit I am divine only there that the good news of the christian gospel is to know that and that is a better way of knowing what is meant being in Christ and Christ in us according to John 14 and many other places in the bible!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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In 1John 1:9 was written for gnostics, or unbelievers which are people still called sinner until they repent and confess their sins!
But in Chapter 2 it is for believers and specially chapter 3, it shows they this is about our born again spirit been saved and knows all things, and can't sin period!
The confession really lies in taking 1 John 1 out of contexts by not knowing who this chapter is speaking too and for not knowing in ignorant for what reasons John is writting this too!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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No. You are not divine. Neither is your spirit. The Holy Spirit that came to dwell in you IS Divine.
Your spirit was not replaced with a new spirit when you were born again. Your original spirit was renewed. Your spirit is YOU. If you remember anything that happened to you before you were born again, then you are still the same person only renewed in the Holy Spirit. If your old spirit was kicked out to the curb and replace by a brand new spirit, then you would have literally died, and the new person that exists now would have no recollection of his former life.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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And don't go citing John 14 when you have rejected John 15 so completely and utterly and without reservation.
You can't go saying I believe this verse but I reject that verse.
Jesus told us Born Again Christians what it takes to remain in Him. And we are warned so many times that if we refuse to listen to Him, we will be cast out and burned.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 06/17/2012 08:29:54
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Originally posted by bwellmysoul
For God is Spirit, so those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth."
John 4:24
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you:
Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Romans 12:3
...think of yourself with sober judgement, with sober judgement, with sober judgement....
Hum....
St. Paul is calling his congregation to reconciliation against a set standard of conduct.
That why we should know who we are in Christ and that is not boasting but a gift recieved in total righteousness and justification, and pure holyness in Christ, who because sin for us so we in the spirit can be little Jesus in this world.
!John 4:17
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 06/17/2012 08:37:31
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No. Jesus became sin for us so that we could be freed from the slavery of sin.
If you don't believe that a spirit animates a body to commit sin, then Jesus did not die for the sins of our spirit, but for our body.
And HE did not do this so that we could go around living as if we had never known Him.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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PM
Member since 07/10/2003
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
No. Jesus became sin for us so that we could be freed from the slavery of sin.
If you don't believe that a spirit animates a body to commit sin, then Jesus did not die for the sins of our spirit, but for our body.
And HE did not do this so that we could go around living as if we had never known Him.
listen to this link below and what he is saying is exactly what I have written and teach as well , and is why 1John 1 is for unbelievers but the other chapter is not for us to repent and begg God to forgive us which He already did 2000 years ago.
Many catholic and churchy has this backwards!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIgtAVzBh0o
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
In 1John 1:9 was written for gnostics, or unbelievers which are people still called sinner until they repent and confess their sins!
But in Chapter 2 it is for believers and specially chapter 3, it shows they this is about our born again spirit been saved and knows all things, and can't sin period!
The confession really lies in taking 1 John 1 out of contexts by not knowing who this chapter is speaking too and for not knowing in ignorant for what reasons John is writting this too!
one love
No. The issue was gnosticsm but the readers were born again believers. John confirmed this in the next chapter.
They were not gnostics and were not described as such.
You already claimed that if anyone rejected Christ there were no second chances and now you expect me to believe that you believe that gnostics got special treatment?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 06/17/2012 14:27:48
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PM
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Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
No. Jesus became sin for us so that we could be freed from the slavery of sin.
If you don't believe that a spirit animates a body to commit sin, then Jesus did not die for the sins of our spirit, but for our body.
And HE did not do this so that we could go around living as if we had never known Him.
listen to this link below and what he is saying is exactly what I have written and teach as well , and is why 1John 1 is for unbelievers but the other chapter is not for us to repent and begg God to forgive us which He already did 2000 years ago.
Many catholic and churchy has this backwards!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIgtAVzBh0o
one love
I don't debate Youtube.
None of the epistles were written to unbelievers.
1 John 2:20 says that they have the unction (anointing) of the Holy one, show me elsewhere in the Bible where unbelievers are anointed.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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PM
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Your continued misunderstanding of 1 John 1:9, is based on a false premise. Because you believe that all future sins are automatically forgiven then John's statement of having our sins forgiven when we confess our sins does not make sense to you so your solution is to turn born again Christians struggling with heresies that have arisen in their midst with the heretics themselves who have rejected Christ (you called them unbeleivers) and offered them a repeat redemption that you have previously rejected.
The problem is that the premise is false, and there are numerous verses that prove this. Rather than trying to rewrite all the verses to fit your theology, you need to consider them as they stand.
What sins are forgiven:
Romans 3:25 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Your solution was to reimagine the verse as if it could in some way be read as all sins being in the past, but there is no way that this verse can be read that way outside of your imagination.
Further, the verse as it stands is supported by the rest of the New Testament. Not just 1 John 1:9.
There is no place where is says that future sins are automatically forgiven, but there are plenty of events that prove that they are not.
James 5:14-16 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
James was speaking about brethren in Christ, these would all be born again Christians who had not rejected Jesus, and yet here he is speaking of sins being forgiven - clearly whatever sins he is talkinga about were not already forgiven or they would not need to be forgiven again.
In Paul's letters to the Corinthians, he was writing to born again believers who were struggling in their faith, but they had not rejected Jesus. That charge is not leveled here:
2 Corinthians 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
Why is Paul lamenting born again Christians who have been lost? What happened to the "done deal" that you keep promising? They did not reject Jesus. The sins that cost them so dearly were not the one sin of rejecting Jesus, but sins of uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness. Were their sins not already forgiven?
You promised me and all who listen to you that all our future sins are forgiven and that we don't have to repent. That it is nice but not necessary. Creflo Dollar even said it was WRONG to confess our sins for the purpose of receiving forgiveness. Paul says plain as they that they were lost not because (you don't mourn the saved) they renounced Christ, and not simply because they stumbled and sinned (we all fall short, he said so), but because they did not repent of these sins.
Acts 8:13-22 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Simon believed and was baptised - check.
Was Simon's future sin of asking to pay for the gift of giving the Holy Spirit automatically forgiven? NO. Forgiveness was not even guaranteed. Simon was asked to repent of this sin, and in the subsequent passage, he did. Simon repented because he knew he had to.
Do you suppose that Peter knew something you don't - or do you know better than Peter? Peter had received the Holy Spirit already and did not need that any man teach him either. In fact, Jesus promised that Peter and the Apostles would receive full understanding of what HE had been teaching them for the past three years prior to His death on the Cross.
Lastly, we will all stand before the Judgment Seat and be judged according to what we have done in the body, good or bad, and receive recompense for that - good or bad. This is not a bad thing. Even you managed to sugar coat it, but the fact remains that we will be rewarded or punished for what we have done, even after coming to faith in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:6-10 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
I need to break for supper, but I hope to add a few more passages from Paul's epistles to drive home what I mean.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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You would benefit greatly from studying all of Romans 2, but I am not sure you are ready for it. It says a lot of things that you would not agree with and I am afraid that you would put all of it in the past with the OT, when not all of it belongs there. Paul's writings can be hard to understand at times, and this chapter is no exception.
But this passage from that chapter might serve some purpose:
Romans 2:3-5 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
The short form of this would be "Judge not lest ye be judged", as written elsewhere in the Bible. But of importance is that repentance is always necessary, and in this case, the problem is not merely judging others, but judging others while doing the exact same sins that the others have done. Such a hardened and impenitant heart can scarcely be saved.
Paul's letters to the Corinthians always speak of repentance, and in all cases, Paul is writing to born again believers.
2 Corinthians 7:9-11 9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
Wordly sorrow, where one just feels bad but does not repent worketh death - this is the second death - the Lake of Fire. HELL. Does he need to spell it out for you three times?
Only Godly sorrow counts - this kind of sorrow brings us to repentance. And not your special kind of redefined repentance where the sins are already forgiven and you don't do anything. Repentance has a meaning in the Bible and you don't get to redefine it to fit your religious philosophy.
Paul also wrote to Timothy and while I do not like putting long passages in a thread, this one has too much going on to cut short:
2 Timothy 2:19-26 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Note in the first verse we have that famous "seal" mentioned again - not as a wrapping that seals up our spirit in a protective covering, but as a mark that identifies us as belonging to God. Just like I keep saying.
But it does go on about vessels and how some are for honour and some for dishonour (not saved), but that anyone can become an honourable vessel by purging himself of those things that are dishonourable. God gives us this ability - it is not already done for us.
Paul tells Timothy to flee youthful lusts. This we are to do. Must most importantly is toward the end of the chapter, Paul speaks of God perhaps giving some to repentance so that they may recover themselves from the snare of the Devil.
If one is in the snare of the Devil, they are not saved. Whoever belongs to Satan, belongs to Satan and will end up in Hell with Satan, unless he turns back to God.
Paul was not speaking about unbelievers, but those who had stumbled. You cannot recover what you never had in the first place.
Repentance is not a dirty word. It is a great gift that Jesus has given us that we can repent of our sins and know that they are forgiven. The OT never had this. And this is not a one shot deal - that would actually be a miserable thing. We still feel guilt when we do wrong and repentance helps with this. Telling people that they shouldn't feel guilt doesn't help.
Paul says that we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, so telling us to ignore this is wrong. This fear and trembling is the sign that God is at work in us. This is not something to ignore or make excuses for, this is a good things.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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