The meaning of IT IS FINISHED!
-
-
First Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
I have heard this teaching =IT is Finished by wommack so many times that I had to give God praise and thankgiving more than ever before.I must admit while discussing the finished work of the cross and death of Jesus and saying it is finished , that Sister FAITH was correct more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 12/26/2011 08:14:35
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Not according to Paul. Don't put words in his mouth.
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by michael
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by michael
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
...because it might help you learn a step about your new born again spirit not able to sin....
Really. You? Absent His Apostolic Church, out there on your own, making it up as you go along?
I don't have to join some religious society to have company, my relationship with Christ is more than enough!
John10:10
So stop being a sinner and leave the sinners den BS!
peace
Protestants are such hypocrites because they want you to join their religious society & follow their doctrinal relationship with Christ.
my relationship with Christ is just deceptive speech to reword relationship with their religious society doctrines. Evangelist who are you trying to fool?
Protestants take what they themselves do & project it on the Catholic Church.
I am not the one claiming to be a sinner still you guy made that confession and belief you are when you come short of the glory!
If i was the one making that accusation against you then you are perfectly correct to say what you are saying and I must repent as false bearing witness, but this is not the case!
I am the one in shock in what you personally from your own post and mouth are writting in black and white you are still snners!
To anyone that is a demonic picture, no one in thier right mind who love Jesus in any way would even what to backslide that way!
one love
Sinning while simply thinking that you are not a sinner.
That’s what all criminals in jail say, that they did not do anything wrong.
What reward is there in that?
Sin & vice is internal weakness virtue is internal strength.
It takes internal strength to admit you are wrong & internal weakness to not be able to find fault in yourself.
Your Protestant doctrine is a vice internal weakness that causes you to be obstinate & find excuses.
The Our Father prayer is a daily prayer because it says give us this day our daily bread
and say forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.
So Jesus wants us to prey daily for our Father to forgive us our sins.
Im shocked at your internal weakness at not being able to admit you are a sinner finding excuses even to the point of ignoring the Our Father prayer given to us by Jesus to pray.
That was an old testament prayer!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
No. Show me where in the OT, that prayer was given.
Jesus gave us that prayer. It as a new institution. It was not given for the OT, even though elements were certainly there, at least in the Catholic OT.
Your assertion makes Christ's three year ministry a total waste of time, and makes God into an idiot. Why on earth would you think that Jesus would institute a BRAND NEW PRAYER, never before heard or said, to a covenant that HE said was passing away?
What kind of MORON, do ou think Jesus was? To make commandments and instructions that you think became obsolete with His death? And when did HE say that this was going to happen?
If Jesus intended for any of HIS instructions to US to be temporary, HE would have said so. So chapter and verse where Jesus said that all His DIVINE commandments would become obsolete, or admit that you made that up.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 07/22/2012 20:14:36
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
No. Show me where in the OT, that prayer was given.
Jesus gave us that prayer. It as a new institution. It was not given for the OT, even though elements were certainly there, at least in the Catholic OT.
Your assertion makes Christ's three year ministry a total waste of time, and makes God into an idiot. Why on earth would you think that Jesus would institute a BRAND NEW PRAYER, never before heard or said, to a covenant that HE said was passing away?
What kind of MORON, do ou think Jesus was? To make commandments and instructions that you think became obsolete with His death? And when did HE say that this was going to happen?
If Jesus intended for any of HIS instructions to US to be temporary, HE would have said so. So chapter and verse where Jesus said that all His DIVINE commandments would become obsolete, or admit that you made that up.
Did Jesus walk the earth when saying this?
Why did Jesus say He must go so the Holy Spirit may come?
Do you know after Christ death the NT began?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Jesus walked the Earth to GIVE HIS TESTAMONY. You cannot seal a testamony that has not yet been given. The New Testament was sealed with Christ's Blood upon the Cross, THAT is when it came into effect. BUT, the Church was fully inaugurated at Pentecost, I'll grant you that. The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost to guide the Church just as promised.
But the seal can only be applied to what has already been given. The NEW Testament, sealed in Christ's blood, was TESTIFIED to while HE walked the Earth.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Jesus walked the Earth to GIVE HIS TESTAMONY. You cannot seal a testamony that has not yet been given. The New Testament was sealed with Christ's Blood upon the Cross, THAT is when it came into effect. BUT, the Church was fully inaugurated at Pentecost, I'll grant you that. The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost to guide the Church just as promised.
But the seal can only be applied to what has already been given. The NEW Testament, sealed in Christ's blood, was TESTIFIED to while HE walked the Earth.
CHrist said when He goes away He will end the comforter the Holy Spirit will come in His place as the NT which is sealed, so when did the Holy Spirit come and come into us, or better to say what book of the bible did this seal and testament take place?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 07/24/2012 11:23:45
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Is the Holy Spirit the Mediator of the New Covenant?
Did the Holy Spirit seal the Covenant in His own Blood? Does the Holy Spirit even have blood to shed?
You have two different events mixed up. The Holy Spirit is NOT THE NEW TESTAMENT. The Holy Spirit did not seal the New Testament. The Holy Spirit did not GIVE the New Testament.
The Holy Spirt is the Spiritual Guide/comforter for the Church. The Holy Spirit inaugerated the Church. The NEW Testament applies to the Church, but is not the Church itself. The Church preserves and upholds the New Testament, but the Church is not the New Testament.
Now where you may be getting confused is that the Holy Spirit seals us. Got news for you - THOUGH IT MAY COME AS A SHOCK - YOU, EVANGELIST, ARE NOT JESUS CHRIST.
You are not the New Testament either. You are not the Mediator of the New Testament, and you did not die on the cross to seal the New Testament in your blood.
The biggest problem is that you lack to historical understanding of what a "seal" is. The early Christians did not have plastic wrap. And only rotting dead things were sealed in tombs. In EVERY other case, a seal is not plastic wrap or a sealed tomb - it is a mark of ownership or testamony. Normally, they would use wax and a signet ring or stamp - in place of wax and signet, Jesus sealed His testament in Blood.
Seriously, have you absolutely no cultural reference for that? Have you seriously never heard of signing a Last Will and Testament? Even today, corporations use seals in the form of an embossing tool to seal their legal documents.
For the blood reference, that is very old and sometimes we see this in cartoons or movies - for example when a character sells their soul to Satan, he always has them seal the document or sign it in their own blood.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Here are some scriptures to help you.
Hebrews 9:17-18 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
In each case the promise was given and then sealed in blood, and after that point in each testament - those of the covenant were bound by what was previously given.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Now on the assumption that perhaps you really don't know the Bible as well as you seem to portray, I will provide some additional verses to help you.
The following is from Exodus and is what the Author of Hebrews was referring to above:
Exodus 24:7-8 7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.
8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.
NOTE: Very important. The Book of the Covenant was already written. The TESTAMENT (book of the covenant) was read aloud to the people and they affirmed its contents. This book was ALREADY written.
Once agreed to, Moses took the blood of the sacrifice and sprinkled it upon the book and the people to seal them into the Covenant. This is what is supposed to Happen. This is how GOD Does things. I don't care what your pastor does. GOD does it this way.
Jesus did the exact same thing. The only difference is that instead of having it all written down in a book, He taught them orally for three years. Among the Jews, ORAL Tradition from God was just as Binding as the Written Word.
Matthew 26:27-28 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
This is repeated in Mark and Luke and also in Paul's first inspired letter to the Corinthians.
And we are reminded again in Hebrews:
Hebrews 9:19-21 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
If the Testamony is not given before the blood, then there is NO TESTAMENT. Got it? Are we clear yet?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Is the Holy Spirit the Mediator of the New Covenant?
Did the Holy Spirit seal the Covenant in His own Blood? Does the Holy Spirit even have blood to shed?
You have two different events mixed up. The Holy Spirit is NOT THE NEW TESTAMENT. The Holy Spirit did not seal the New Testament. The Holy Spirit did not GIVE the New Testament.
The Holy Spirt is the Spiritual Guide/comforter for the Church. The Holy Spirit inaugerated the Church. The NEW Testament applies to the Church, but is not the Church itself. The Church preserves and upholds the New Testament, but the Church is not the New Testament.
Now where you may be getting confused is that the Holy Spirit seals us. Got news for you - THOUGH IT MAY COME AS A SHOCK - YOU, EVANGELIST, ARE NOT JESUS CHRIST.
You are not the New Testament either. You are not the Mediator of the New Testament, and you did not die on the cross to seal the New Testament in your blood.
The biggest problem is that you lack to historical understanding of what a "seal" is. The early Christians did not have plastic wrap. And only rotting dead things were sealed in tombs. In EVERY other case, a seal is not plastic wrap or a sealed tomb - it is a mark of ownership or testamony. Normally, they would use wax and a signet ring or stamp - in place of wax and signet, Jesus sealed His testament in Blood.
Seriously, have you absolutely no cultural reference for that? Have you seriously never heard of signing a Last Will and Testament? Even today, corporations use seals in the form of an embossing tool to seal their legal documents.
For the blood reference, that is very old and sometimes we see this in cartoons or movies - for example when a character sells their soul to Satan, he always has them seal the document or sign it in their own blood.
Joh:14:25: These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh:14:26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jo:2:26: These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jo:2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Jo:2:28: And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
1Jo:2:29: If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/25/2012
Location: USA
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/25/2012
Location: USA
As Faith wrote, 1st Century people's would not have used the word "seal" as we do today.
We say "seal" and we think plastic zip lock bag. We don't think clay symbol used to imprint with a mark.
1st Century peoples would not use the word "seal" to mean a protective outer covering or container that protects contents from bacterial damage (or damage from sin).
One can not use 21st century technology to interpret a 1st Century sentence.
Edited by bwellmysoul on 07/24/2012 14:24:15
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Evangelist, neither passage that you gave has anything to do with what I am talking about.
The TESTAMENT is what Jesus gave us when HE was walking the earth. The rest is COMMENTARY.
John did not give us the New Testament. He did record what Jesus gave us, and he wrote to help us apply what was given. But John is also NOT the mediator of the New Testament. JOHN did not give the Blood of the New Testament.
Read the passages that I gave you and let them sink in, and don't go giving any more verses until you show me that you understand what is said in those passages.
This is not to say that the rest of the Bible is not authoritative and binding - it is. But there would have been no point to Jesus shedding the Blood of the New Testament if HE had not already given it.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
A seal in antiquity is a mark or a brand. A way to label something as one's own.
Or One's own.
2,000 year old Hebrew seal:
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/05/02/ancient-hebrew-seal-discovered-near-jerusalems-first-temple/
In ephesian 1:13 is not this kind of sealed, because it is the Holy Spirit which is doing the sealed which has nothing to do with the natural realm or sences!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
THe only difference is that the Holy Spirit does this spiritually. It is the exact same concept. And the only way that first century Christians could have understood it.
Imagine telling a first century Christian that the Holy Spirit was going to seal them in a tomb. Tombs were only sealed to keep the rotting smell inside. Your spirit would have to be pretty rank with sin to warrant that kind of treatment. And anyone who had a spirit in that condition could never enter Heaven.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
|
|
Topic Locked
Subscribe by Email
RSS