Does salvation depends on activities?
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Does salvation depends on the activity of the sinner?Spiritually dead sinners, who are likely, to follow their natural inclination,rather than instruction from the authority of the written Word of God,hope that they will move Christ by their activitiesto have compassion more... Jn 8:43-44 Why is my language not clear to you?
Because you are unable to hear what I say.
You belong to your father, the devil,
and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
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Does salvation depends on activities?
Do activities that break all the commandments on purpose and see where you end up. Then you will find out.
Through bigotry prejudices false assumptions & false premises Protestants are protesting a catholic church made up by Protestantism that does not actually exist.
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Fifth Member
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And I also like a guy from California called Francis Chan- he's written a book called "Crazy Love" that is really good.
Really? I got that book at a yard sale last weekend. I had never heard of Francis Chan before, but I do like a song with the same title by Hawk Nelson. Since you said that, I'll be sure to bump it up a few slots on my reading list.
"Be good, keep your feet dry, your eyes open, your heart at peace and your soul in the joy of Christ." - Thomas Merton
www.percalamus.com
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I'm glad that we agree about the plague of theraputic Christianity, RC (that"s R C as in Rev Cort not Roman Catholic) I was afraid you might suggest something like Marianne Williamson or Max Lucado and I would have to discredit you for good.
But since we are keeping this discussion open, I would like to respond to your earlier post.
We definitely experience a purging as we grow in Christ. You are also correct that this purging does not merit justification. Purging is merely the first step in our spiritual life where we no longer care for the things of the world that used to bring us comfort. If it is not of God, we don't want or need it. The next stage is called the
'illumination" where we experience wonder and awe in the creation of God. It has been described as a renewal in innocence, as if you are looking through the world again for the first time. The Italian mystic Emmanuele Brunatto describes his experience: " The day, the night, the sun, the rain and the wind all united me with the order of creation: a nest of baby chickens moved me to tears, a blade of grass made me shout with wonder. The colors, shapes, and smells of the countryside exalted me almost to delirium, and, walking through the hills, I would sing hymns of thanksgiving and joy. Without a shadow of a doubt, I was the richest and happiest man in the world."
The next stage is undoubtedly the most painful part of spiritual integration, called by St. John of the Cross the "dark night of the soul." Mother Teresa was said to have experienced 40 years in this stage. Another purge takes place, not of worldly desires, which by this time have long since surrendered, but of its very selfhood. God is working with the soul apart from any effort of its own. John of the Cross describes the darkness as the result of the operation of a "light greater than the soul can bear: "The more clear the light, the more does it blind the eyes of the owl, and the more we try to look at the sun, the feebler grows our sight... For in this pure light...the soul perceives itself to be so unclean and miserable that it seems that God has set Himself against it...So great are the weakness and imperfections of the soul that the Hand of God...is felt to be so heavy and oppressive, though merely touching it, and that, too, most mercifully; for He touches the soul, not to chastise it, but to fill it with His graces."
Eventually the dark night gives way to the final stage of Christian growth, called the Spiritual Union. Jeanne Marie Guyon describes it beautifully: "The soul, after a many redoubled death, expires at last in the arms of Love; but...reduced to nought, there is...in her ashes a seed of immortality... The self will finally dies, and the soul learns to say with Job (13:15), "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him." The transformation of the soul has taken place.
This does not distance the mystic from his everyday human affairs, however, in fact he now has a greater desire and ability to serve humankind. The will of God is his own will and his soul desires nothing but the will of God.
In no way is this exclusively Catholic spirituality. Jacob Boehme and Evelyn Underhill wrote of their experiences along the exact same guidelines. Underhill, an Anglican mystic, was my primary source for this post.
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Thanks for those words heavenlysecrets. I can definitely identify some of those steps in my own faith journey. I'm not sure which step I'm in currently. Perhaps they do not always run consecutively. And perhaps there are pieces of each stage which happen at various times throughout our lives. But yes, I can definitely affirm that God has worked in my own life in all these ways at different times. Sometimes it's easier to see in retrospect what He HAS BEEN doing than it is to see what He is NOW doing. I suppose that is the nature of being a finite person who lacks the perspective to be able to see outside of oneself when enduring particular trials, struggles, discipline, or times of growth.
Regarding the authors you mentioned, I agree. I can't recommend some protestant writers because of their humanistic approach to faith- or some who seem to have gone off the farm on some out of context detail of Scripture. And the therapeutic junk is rampant here in the U.S. It seems these folks are simply interested in gaining a large following more than anything else. Pragmatism is also an obsession in protestantism today. People are seeing their churches becoming empty so they become obsessed with "whatever works," which is code for "whatever will get butts in the seats." Unfortunately, in such a "tickling their ears" approach, the first thing to go is any depth of spirituality and theology. People want to feel, not think. They want excitement more than true introspection. They want their needs met more than to truly worship our great God. So, those who want to grow megachurches usually have to sacrifice things along the way. And those who want to sell a bunch of books have to do the same. I praise the Lord that He has not allowed me to run in that direction, even though the temptation has been there.
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While each soul is different, the spiritual life progresses generally along the same lines. I don't know how your religious tradition would accommodate you, but if I were you, I would seek a spiritual director.
It would make a huge difference in your prayer life and every other aspect of your life as well. Please pray about this.
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What kind of spiritual director would you recommend?
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Gee, that's a tough one, rc. Regardless of the religious affiliation a spiritual director should be both learned and holy; that is, lead an active prayer life. I received spiritual direction from a Holy Cross brother who taught at St. Edwards University here in Austin years ago.
He also counseled many non Catholics, mostly former students like myself. My director has been in Mexico for the past 14 years and I have been without one ever since. You would likely be more comfortable with someone in your own tradition, someone who has walked in your shoes, so to speak, and someone you would absolutely trust with blind faith. I wish I could recommend some good books to read, but I'm just now embarking on an attempt to learn about non- Catholic spirituality myself. I would say if you are near a college or university, that would be a good place to start looking, maybe a retired professor or pastor. As you continue to grow in faith and prayer perhaps it's a role you could take on yourself.
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I just noticed something, revcort. The Rev. in your name wouldn't happen to be Reverend, would it? Did I just suggest to a Man of the Cloth to get spiritual counsel? You'll pardon my impudence, Rev. And thanks for taking it all in good stride!
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quote:
Originally posted by heavenlysecrets
I just noticed something, revcort. The Rev. in your name wouldn't happen to be Reverend, would it? Did I just suggest to a Man of the Cloth to get spiritual counsel? You'll pardon my impudence, Rev. And thanks for taking it all in good stride!
Yes, I am a reverend, but there is no need to apologize. I'm no more immune to error than anyone else. Actually, I'm in greater need of staying away from error because I lead others, so you're right that I need guidance.
By the way, my first name is Darryl but I go by Courtney, which is my middle name. (My mother is an artist and just loved that name back in 1972. Haha!) My name has caused confusion for people often, but I get to have fun when a telemarketer asks for Miss Courtney Hill, which is a dead give away they don't know me. I was ordained just before I finished seminary out in Fort Worth, TX and there was a deacon in that church who called me Rev. Court as a joke of sorts. I adopted it as an AOL screen name back in 1998, and the rest, as they say, is history.
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Hi revcort,
good to see you passing through town again. How is everything with you and your ministry?
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Hey jdubya- things are going well. I'm still working with the same congregation I was working with before. We've had another pastoral transition now, about 2 years ago. That is the 2nd one of those I've now been through here, so I'm now working with my 3rd senior pastor here. My family is now up to 5 kids, ages 17,15,12,8,and 3. My wife is still alive after 5 kids and putting up with me for nearly 20 years- it will be 20 years on January 2nd. If we were Catholic, she'd be up for sainthood. 
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I'm pretty sure you can still enter the seminary and become a priest revcort. Protestant ministers convert all the time! :D
There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church. -Archbishop Sheen
... you should know that there is present with you the angel whom God has appointed for each man… This angel, who is sleepless and cannot be deceived, is always present with you; he sees all things and is not hindered by darkness. You should know, too, that with him is God. -St. Anthony the Great
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quote:
Originally posted by revcort
Hey jdubya- things are going well. I'm still working with the same congregation I was working with before. We've had another pastoral transition now, about 2 years ago. That is the 2nd one of those I've now been through here, so I'm now working with my 3rd senior pastor here. My family is now up to 5 kids, ages 17,15,12,8,and 3. My wife is still alive after 5 kids and putting up with me for nearly 20 years- it will be 20 years on January 2nd. If we were Catholic, she'd be up for sainthood.
Excellent.
Forever humble revcort. I know that might not go over well (humility) with our happy clappy contingent, but it is a trait that I admire.
Good to also see there are still some out there that trust God with their family size. Fourteen years is long span. It's the same gap between my oldest and youngest siblings.
You're not exactly the Duggars, but five is a nice clan. I'm sure that they are all well-behaved like their father, so your wife is not too stressed.
Hey, just had a thought.
I really like the discussion over at calledtocommunion.com.
You might enjoy it as well. It is some of the highest level, respectful discussion around. It is pretty much a Catholic/Reformed site run mostly by Catholics who were previously reformed pastors and academics. Very interesting when I can understand it.
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Thanks jdubya, that web-site sounds very intriguing. I will have to check it out. Sounds like I might get in over my head, though. Still, might as well check it out.
My kids are fairly well behaved, but they get their worst qualities from me, which is a goofy sense of humor and the overuse of sarcasm at times. It gets them in trouble with both their mother and myself often. Well, mainly the older 2 have the issues. My daughter should be a litigator she likes to argue so much. My oldest son is edging closer to 16 and is starting to think he knows more than me, so that's trouble. I've been there, though. I thought my father was dumb from about age 17 until about age 24 when we were having our first child. By the time I was 25, my father was a genius. It's amazing how much he learned in such a short time. 
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Please name some of the sins you are referring to
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