Eagles or vultures? Live or die? Rise or fall?

Posted on 11/17/2006 at 18:00:26  |  Reply  |  Report Abuse |  0

Today's Gospel reading ends with one of Christ's more mysterious responses to His disciples. After describing the Second Coming ("...one will be taken and the other will be left..."), the disciples ask Him, "Where, Lord?" (...making me wonder, are they asking where some more...

Edited by Diana Holberg on 11/17/2006 18:02:19

Posted on 01/18/2008 at 22:21:10  |  Reply  |  Report Abuse |  0

Strange enough, there are four citations about eagles and/or vultures.

First reference -->

Leviticus Chapter 11:

13
"Of the birds, these you shall loathe and, as loathsome, they shall not be eaten: the eagle, the vulture, the osprey,

14
the kite, the various species of falcons,
15

the various species of crows,

16
the ostrich, the nightjar, the gull, the various species of hawks,

17
the owl, the cormorant, the screech owl,

18
the barn owl, the desert owl, the buzzard,

19
the stork, the various species of herons, the hoopoe, and the bat.

Second reference -->

According to Greek mythology, Zeus sent an eagle to eat at the liver of Prometheus. Another site regarded some sources using vulture as the translation. -- www.mythweb.com and www.pantheon.org

Third reference -->

Ancient Egyptians worshipped the vulture (this is most likely the reason these birds are prohibited in Leviticus.) -- www.egyptianmyths.net

Fourth reference -->

Isaiah Chapter 40:

31
They that hope in the LORD will renew their strength, they will soar as with eagles' wings; They will run and not grow weary, walk and not grow faint.

A reflection:

Reflecting at the Nativity in the manger (an animal feed), this probably is sacramental language (somone on here made this point.) The feed is where an animal is nurtured. Where Christ feeds His flock, He nurtures the souls in the Eucharist (Christ is truly present.)

The vulture and eagle seem like a transitional language (probably better explained as transformational.) A vulture and eagle both peck and devour. Yet, an eagle (considering both in science and mythology) fly quite high (mountainous terrains in science, and Olympus in Greek mythology.)

Posted on 01/19/2008 at 01:03:17  |  Reply  |  Report Abuse |  0

I read one commentary that said when eagles are mentioned in the book of Revelation, they are always creatures that do God's bidding. While the OT and external sources suggest eagles did not have a universally positive image, I think the NT, and after it, the Christian Fathers, should carry most weight in determining what eagles meant to early Christians.

As for eucharistic imagery, it ABOUNDS in Scripture, quite apart from "where the body is, there will the eagles be gathered." As you mentioned, this is one feature of the nativity scene: Bethlehem means "city of BREAD" and a manger is, literally, a BREAD box. You put BREAD in a bread box... and JESUS was put in the manger. And He referred to Himself as "the true bread from heaven" -the true manna that truly feeds and satisfy His chosen people.

Then there are all the OT verses: "I will feed you with finest wheat" (Ps81:16; Ps147:14) "You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows." (Ps23:5) "Wisdom has set her table" (Prov9:2) "you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare." (Isa55:1-2) On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine— the best of meats and the finest of wines."(Isa25:6) I could go on...

Posted on 01/11/2009 at 12:22:13  |  Reply  |  Report Abuse |  1

I'm SO glad this question was asked. I had the same question and concern. This is what I have found:

(These passages are translated word by word from their original text)

Luke 17:37:
"And they answered and said unto him Where Lord And he said unto them Wheresoever the body is thither will the eagles be gathered together"

From the original Greek text:
The word "Body":
#963;#969;#956;#945; noun - nominative singular neuter
soma so'-mah: the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively -- bodily, body, slave.

"Eagles":
#945;#949;#964;#959;#953; noun - nominative plural masculine
aetos ah-et-os': an eagle (from its wind-like flight) -- eagle.


Whereas


Matthew 24:28:
"For wheresoever the carcase is there will the eagles be gathered together"


From the original text "Body/Carcass":
#960;#964;#969;#956;#945; noun - nominative singular neuter
ptoma pto'-mah: a ruin, i.e. (specially), lifeless body (corpse, carrion) -- dead body, carcase, corpse.

"Eagles":
#945;#949;#964;#959;#953; noun - nominative plural masculine
aetos ah-et-os': an eagle (from its wind-like flight) -- eagle.


The Greek translation for the word "aetos" IS "eagle", NOT "vulture".

#945;#949;#964;#972;#962; = eagle, kite, osprey

The Greek word for "vulture" is:

vulture = #947;#973;#960;#945;#962;, #972;#961;#957;#953;#959;, (gypas, ornio)

Neither gypas or ornio are found in these passages.



BUT, these two passages have two distinctly different words for body. One meaning "body" and one meaning "dead body".

#960;#964;#974;#956;#945; (ptoma)= corpse (Matthew)

#963;#974;#956;#945; (soma) = body (Luke)



Definitely enough to make you wonder what the true message of these passages are.

We should always be careful about taking man's translation of the word for true and accurate.

Posted on 01/11/2009 at 12:35:21  |  Reply  |  Report Abuse |  0

Welcome, kellirene...

Posted on 01/11/2009 at 12:49:15  |  Reply  |  Report Abuse |  0

Hi Diana! Thank you for the welcome.


I was so excited to see this question because the Lord has brought this error in translation to my attention. (I love how He does this!) He actually stopped me in the middle of reading Luke and urged me to check it out.

I've come to the conclusion that both passages should read "eagles". Matthew should read "corpse" and Luke should read "Body".

Luke:
"Wheresoever the body is thither will the eagles be gathered together"

Matthew:
"For wheresoever the carcase is there will the eagles be gathered together"

When you read it this way it does put an interesting spin on things.



To me, it says, "EVERYWHERE".

Posted on 01/11/2009 at 13:01:06  |  Reply  |  Report Abuse |  0

Which translation are you using? It was interesting to me that the translations I checked would cross-reference between Matthew and Luke, and yet translate both words differently. Seems like a strange thing for translators to do.

Posted on 01/11/2009 at 14:15:09  |  Reply  |  Report Abuse |  0

Here you go:

For the translations of Matthew 24:
http://scripturetext.com/matthew/24-28.htm

For the translations of Luke 17-37
http://scripturetext.com/luke/17-37.htm


You can see and compare the various translations right there. And to the right on each page you can see the word by word translation of the original Greek.

Posted on 01/11/2009 at 14:38:02  |  Reply  |  Report Abuse |  0

I'm finding NIV to be one of the worst offenders of taking liberties. Sad.

Posted on 01/11/2009 at 14:47:30  |  Reply  |  Report Abuse |  0

Those links are pretty cool. The NIV is a "thought-for-thought" translation, if I remember correctly. So they are not held to the same standards as those purporting to be "word-for-word", such as the KJV or the NASB.

Posted on 01/11/2009 at 15:47:16  |  Reply  |  Report Abuse |  0

That makes sense. I personally lean towards the King James version for that very reason.

Posted on 01/11/2009 at 16:36:05  |  Reply  |  Report Abuse |  0

As an Evangelical, I became a fan of the NASB and it is still what I use primarily when questions of meaning arise. Like you, though, I always compare it with the Greek or Hebrew to be sure it squares. I've found it to be very reliable in terms of being as close to "word-for-word" as one can get when translating from such rich languages into such a limited one.

I really wish I was gifted for new languages. I would love to learn to read Biblical Greek or Latin, but I haven't the time nor the patience for it.

Edited by Diana Holberg on 01/11/2009 16:37:29

Posted on 01/11/2009 at 19:32:23  |  Reply  |  Report Abuse |  0

Oh, me too! If only I could start all over and focus on these two languages way back when. I look forward to the day I meet the Lord and it all makes sense.