proof that catholic are still sinner and not Saved
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I am starting this thread because I am still shocked to see that catholic and the catholic church still see's themselves as catholic sinners not saved now by grace and faith!Quote by kamati quote:Yes, we are still sinners and if you say otherwise, the Bible says you are more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 08/13/2012 06:59:13
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No. What would be foolish would be to go around saying I was a wealthy billionaire and living as if I were above the law when the reality was that I had forsaken my treasure for the sake of a few moments of pleasure.
You are the one demanding yes or no answers to questions for which it is not that simple.
I was saved, I am being saved and I hope to be saved. I have just as much assurance of Salvation as you do. Probably more. Your confidence does not make your theology better. It means that you are not like Saint Paul who warned that even he did not know the answers you are asking. Paul warned that even he could lose his salvation.
You want absolutes and guarantees.
Well, here they are:
God will never abandon any of us. Not even Satan.
God loves us all, even the worst of sinners.
God has provided all the Grace we need to be saved.
Now. Does that mean that everyone is saved? God loves everyone, NO EXCEPTIONS. God desires for everyone to be saved. But not all will be. WHY? There is no lack in what God has done for us, but the choice is up to us.
According to the Bible, which you have consistantly refused to recognise an authority over you, the wages of sin is death. This is still true to this day.
And the Bible also says that it is not just one sin that leads to death. Adam's sin was NOT unbelief. It was disobedience. THAT is the sin that leads to Hell. No other. Unbelief? That is the reason why people sin. Some because they don't believe there is a God, but most because they don't believe that God will send them to Hell.
You claim you want me to "admit" something that you force me to say by badgering me with a requirement of "yes" or "no" when it is not my decision or within my jurisdiction to make such answers.
Yes or no? Do we become low, down, dirty sinners every time we sin? All sin is dirty, low and disgusting and does taint us, body and spirit. In fact, I would say it taints our spirit even more so than our body.
But do we become low down dirty sinners at the moment of our sin with our names blotted out - that depends on US. If God knows that this was merely a stumble from which we will recover, He is there to help us and is eager to be reconciled with us. It is only if we turn from Him and choose to remain in our sin by refusing to repent that we have a problem.
Being made righteous, which happens at our Baptism, is not a guaranteed permanent condition. The only one who appeared to be in that state in the Bible is Mary. The Greek showed that she was in a state that we are not, but we do enter at least something close to that when we are born again. We are made acceptable in the Beloved, but to continue in that state requires that we not only accept the New Covenant, but also live according to the New Covenant.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
No. What would be foolish would be to go around saying I was a wealthy billionaire and living as if I were above the law when the reality was that I had forsaken my treasure for the sake of a few moments of pleasure.
You are the one demanding yes or no answers to questions for which it is not that simple.
I was saved, I am being saved and I hope to be saved. I have just as much assurance of Salvation as you do. Probably more. Your confidence does not make your theology better. It means that you are not like Saint Paul who warned that even he did not know the answers you are asking. Paul warned that even he could lose his salvation.
You want absolutes and guarantees.
Well, here they are:
God will never abandon any of us. Not even Satan.
God loves us all, even the worst of sinners.
God has provided all the Grace we need to be saved.
Now. Does that mean that everyone is saved? God loves everyone, NO EXCEPTIONS. God desires for everyone to be saved. But not all will be. WHY? There is no lack in what God has done for us, but the choice is up to us.
According to the Bible, which you have consistantly refused to recognise an authority over you, the wages of sin is death. This is still true to this day.
And the Bible also says that it is not just one sin that leads to death. Adam's sin was NOT unbelief. It was disobedience. THAT is the sin that leads to Hell. No other. Unbelief? That is the reason why people sin. Some because they don't believe there is a God, but most because they don't believe that God will send them to Hell.
You claim you want me to "admit" something that you force me to say by badgering me with a requirement of "yes" or "no" when it is not my decision or within my jurisdiction to make such answers.
Yes or no? Do we become low, down, dirty sinners every time we sin? All sin is dirty, low and disgusting and does taint us, body and spirit. In fact, I would say it taints our spirit even more so than our body.
But do we become low down dirty sinners at the moment of our sin with our names blotted out - that depends on US. If God knows that this was merely a stumble from which we will recover, He is there to help us and is eager to be reconciled with us. It is only if we turn from Him and choose to remain in our sin by refusing to repent that we have a problem.
Being made righteous, which happens at our Baptism, is not a guaranteed permanent condition. The only one who appeared to be in that state in the Bible is Mary. The Greek showed that she was in a state that we are not, but we do enter at least something close to that when we are born again. We are made acceptable in the Beloved, but to continue in that state requires that we not only accept the New Covenant, but also live according to the New Covenant.
So your answer is a Yes , and you are the same sinner you were before you were saved, and you are going to the same hell as when you were not born again and your name is blotted out of the book of life just the same when you never was redeemed by the blood of Jesus is this basically what you are saying????
If you were saved and getting saved and hoping and a wishing you might get saved as you have quoted above that is more evidence direct from your own mouth you are saying and admitting you are not saved , or born again and you might turn from being a sinner by more hoping and more wishing!
That is not good news is it?
That is not any gospel neither FAITH!
So from your side you have admitted you are still a sinner not saved by grace, and anyone not saved by grace is going to hell that is for sure according to the bible and are damned already:
read Galation 2 and John 3 again to see why this is so!
Thanks for your honest catholic answer!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
You twist my words as readily as you twist the Scriptures.
NO I am not the same as I was before I was born again. It would be impossible. God has a seal on me that is PERMANENT - even to the end of ETERNITY. It cannot be undone.
I NEVER said that I wasn't saved by Grace or that I wasn't Born Again. All those who are saved, are saved by Grace through Faith - Catholics taught that from the beginning, before any heretic thought of anything else.
You preach a false gospel that is NOT in the Bible. It does not matter how good it sounds to you, it is not anywhere near as good as the GOSPEL of Christ that I follow.
You believe a legal fiction. That you are merely declared righteous even though you are still a low-down, dirty sinner in the flesh. You have admitted before that it is only your spirit that is perfect, not your flesh.
I would rather die a thousand deaths than be THAT.
I was washed clean and made righteous - truly righteous, flesh and spirit. And I have the grace, faith and means to remain so. What do you have?
You claim that the IMMORTAL spirit that you were born with, given to you as an EXTRAORDINARY GIFT from GOD, was removed from you and replaced with Jesus.
SO? Your original spirit CANNOT DIE AND CANNOT BE KILLED. YOUR original SPIRIT is YOU. And according to you, it was never redeemed, never cleansed of sin. THis means that YOUR IMMORTAL SPIRIT is now in Hell. Where else can it go? Suffering for all eternity.
I would rather die a thousand deaths that live knowing that my SPIRIT was in HELL suffering for my sins, when Jesus had the power to save me. What do you think HE died for if it is YOUR immortal spirit taking your body's place in Hell (at least for now)?
I would spit and curse any "god" that would do that.
Your spirit is in Hell, and your body is now inhabited by Jesus. Well, when your body dies JESUS goes to Heaven, then what? When your body is resurrected, what spirit will it resurrect with? Not Jesus, Jesus has His OWN Glorified Body. He is not you. SO where does your body go? HELL!!! Your body cannot remain separated from YOUR spirit. Got it?
You make a monster out of Christ. And worse, you portray HIM, MY LORD AND MY GOD, as a weak monster incapable of even keeping you from sin. Jesus was fully capable of keeping His own flesh and blood HUMAN body from sin, so why isn't HE capable of keeping your flesh and blood body from sin? I wouldn't waste my time with that kind of "god". That is no "god" at all. Just a weak demon horsing around.
No, MY GOD not only redeemed me, HE gave me the means to not only be righteous when I was Born Again, but to become truly PERFECT as HE IS, not just legally so. Not just on "paper".
I have seen your gospel and I read Christ's Gospel in the Bible and HIS is WAY better than yours.
You just want a loophole. A way to sin without worrying about it. Martin Luther wanted that too. Satan gave that same "gospel" to Eve in the Garden - the EXACT SAME GOSPEL OF EVANGELIST = ok, to be fair, it was his first, you just plagiarized it. Or did you even do that much? I think you just liked what someone whispered to you and bought the same ancient lie - hook, line and sinker.
What other explanation can there be when you say the same thing that Satan said - that sin is not an issue and we won't die (the second death) if we disobey God. That is the biggest lie ever told.
And, no, I am not calling you a liar. That lie has been around since the dawn of mankind.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 05/21/2013 18:13:00
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