heretic catholic purgatory exposed

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Originally posted by jdubya

So there is no confusion, This is what I want you to consider and answer the questions that follow.

2Cr 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
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2Cr 7:8 For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it—for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while—
9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
11 For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter.

How would you interpret this passage?
Remember, Paul is speaking to born again believers, so this isn't initial repentance to be born again.

Quote Evangelist:
First of all before you really try to twist God word to think that this is ´going against our perfect , holy born again spirit is off the wall and incorrect!
The scriptures you posted has nothing to do with a christian born again spirit, or our born again spirit repenting of anything!
Seond Paul is giving a warning to stay away from evil spirit people or unbelievers, and don't difile your flesh and body with unbelievers!
The thing about a Godly sorrow is being really sorry for disobedience, but not in a way of getting forgibeness of wrong doings, but just being truely sorrow and not a lip service.
Wordly people do these lip service and fake rituals, but a christian who is born again is always in right standing with God and God has already forgave all our sins, past , present and all future sins so we don have to ask Go´d to forgive us , but we need to be sorrow for our sins because we want to please our Father God because He already forgave us before we did any sins!
You need to also read the chapzer before to really understand what Paul is warning about not to being yoked with world evil spirits with unbelievers which have bad spirits.
There is a spirit in many things like we say:
The children in class had a good school spirit, or the cheerleader were in a bad spirit or good spirit, but that is not talking about the third part of us being.
It is a attitude or you can be in one spirit as such with a prostitute, and become one with her and that is why having sexual intercource with a prostitute is dangerious because you can get all those spirits hook up on you which she has became one with spiritually!


First of all, in v. 1, how does one cleanse oneself of all defilement of flesh and spirit if one has a perfect born again spirit? What other spirit might Paul be speaking of?
Why does Paul relate cleansing our flesh and spirit to obtain perfect holiness?

Quote evangelist:
By staying away from unclean people!

What is Godly sorrow according to the will of God for believers?

Quore Evangelist:
I mention this above already because I know why you posted these verse, and I know what you think it is saying and is not!

Why does it say that this repentance was produced by Godly sorrow and leads to salvation?

Quote Evangelist:
Salvation is a zoe life the tooogood life and salvation is being whole in your body , soul and born again spirit!
Wgen you are really sorry about something it will close the doors of satan in your soul and body and all your parts of you will be whole and like God wants for your best in this world!

Do you see what the effects of this repentance were?

Quote Evangelist
To be protected
, and live in the perfect will of God in your asoul and body!

Why does Paul say this repentance proved that they were innocent?

Would they have been proved to be innocent if they had not had Godly sorrow which led them to repentance which produced this renewed zeal in them?

Quote Evangelist;:
Yes , they would be innocent before God!

What is Paul's purpose in making a distinction between worldly sorrow and Godly sorrow?

Were these Corinthians sin conscious even though their Godly sorrow which led to repentance was according to the will of God?

Quote Evangelist:
That is why Paul was trying to correct them and protect them in love and t´rying also not to be so hard on them, even though they were still sons and daughter in Christ perfection toward them!

If you really want to pursue truth, please answer these without looking up someone else's sermons that will sweep this passage under the rug. I think these are legitimate questions to ask you in light of your views of repentance and perfect born again spirit.

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

The context for body and spirit is clearly the body and spirit of the person, which for the born again Christian is a reference to his or her born again spirit as there would be no other belonging to that person. What cues are you using to turn this "spirit" into another kind of spirit?

It is not possible to defile "school spirit" or any other kind of spirit but one's one personal spirit. So how do you reconcile your comments to the plain text of the passage, and could you please use scripture passages to support your position.

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

I did read the chapter before, that is why I know that you have the context wrong.

Flesh and spirit are two sides of the same coin. Paul wasn't asking them to clear out the defilemen of others, but themselves.

Quote What?
Why Paul say this, and much more through the whole chapter of 6?
2Co:6:14: Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Also notice the warning of other people unbelief, and unrighteousness, and thirdly from other people darkness!
It is like paul is warning them not to let in a poison snake into your own house, and don't live with one!
If you do that it might bite you one day and you die, so clean that snake from your house, stay away from any , and don't let it run free in your house, because God wants us to live and not die!

Chapter 6 is not about spirits, but unbelievers and idolators. Spirit of any kind, good or bad, is not mentioned. So it would make absolutely no sense to go inserting a disconnected spirit in 2 Corinthians 7:1.

Quote Evangelist:
Belief and unbelief, is a spiritual matter, and has to do with the unseen!
Idols and people who worship such things are making that thing a god as such, which they are giving powers to like witchcraft,voodo dolls,or muslims worshiping in Mecca their schrine as a Idol, or even drugs is an Idol and their is a spirit behind dope, and many other unclean things, and that is why Even Paul said 2Co:6:17: Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Paul knew the spiritual evil spirits behind these tools of satan!
Even in the bible says don't touch someone suddenly or lay hands on them because of spiritual matters!
1Tm:5:15: For some are already turned aside after Satan.
1Tm:5:22: Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.


2 Corinthians 6

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

And the response that should come from the Corinthians? Paul helps them out:

2 Corinthians 7

1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2 Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man.

3 I speak not this to condemn you: for I have said before, that ye are in our hearts to die and live with you.

4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

And further down, we have spirit mentioned again:

13 Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by you all.

Why do you think that Paul was writing to the Corinthians concerned about saving bad evil spirits and bad flesh? In 1 Corinthians, it was the Corinthian Christians who were in dire trouble, and now you say that Paul is out to save demons and unbelievers instead of the Corinthians?

Your interpretation makes no sense. Flesh and spirit are two sides of the same coin - man.

Quote Evangelist:
Your carnal thinking is falsh and in error because it is not about a man, but about what others and other thing can defile and effect you!
You are twisting completly what Paul is warning about.
Just because the bible mention spirit, it doesn't always mean the born again spirit our has something to do with our third body part or being!
here is another biblical example what I mean which is so clear to see it has nothing to do with our spirits or being, but is an emotion,filling,or motive, or actions, a desire:
2Co:4:13: We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Notice also (spirit) is with a small (s)!
So please put this in true perpective!



1 Corinthians 5:4-6 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

This born again Christian is not guaranteed salvation. Paul handed him over to torture so that his spirit may be saved. Not a done deal.

Do you think his school spirit needs saving, or is Paul concerned about saving Belial's spirit?

If you go back to the beginning of this chapter in 1 Corinthians 5, poor soul, his sin was not unbelief or rejecting Jesus. He just wanted illicit sex. It would seem that he would have fared much better under your gospel than Paul's.

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Originally posted by jdubya

Evan,
First you delayed responding to this text which leads me to believe you went to find out how your some of your teachers dealt with this passage. That's fine. I know you are heavily dependent on them.
However, to then come out and attempt to use shame and basically refer to us as ignorant (or worse) who twist God's word and use an "off the wall" interpretation is an unfortunate tactic that I recognize as form of coercion and manipulation. They don't work.
In order to be an “off the wall” interpretation, this would mean:
1.) That when flesh and spirit are used together elsewhere in scripture, they would be almost exclusively used in the same context that you believe is used in 2Cor. 7.
2.) That our understanding of flesh and spirit as referring to the flesh of man and the spirit of man would be non-existent or extremely rarely used in scripture.
Here is a list of such passages:
Mat 26:41, Mar 14:38, Luk 24:39, Jhn 3:6, 6:63, Rom 8:4,5,6,9,13, 1Cr 5:5, Gal 3:3, 4:29, 5:16,17, 6:8, Phl 3:3, 1Ti 3:16, 1Pe 3:18, 4:6, 1Jo 4:2
Please find where your understanding in 2Cor. 7:1 could reasonably be found even once in the above verses?
If you can’t, then it is your interpretation that is truly “off the wall”.

There are a lot more difficulties with your interpretation on top of these which I will address in subsequent posts, some of which FAL has already addressed.

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Originally posted by evangelist

Your carnal thinking is falsh and in error because it is not about a man, but about what others and other thing can defile and effect you!
You are twisting completly what Paul is warning about.
Just because the bible mention spirit, it doesn't always mean the born again spirit our has something to do with our third body part or being!
here is another biblical example what I mean which is so clear to see it has nothing to do with our spirits or being, but is an emotion,filling,or motive, or actions, a desire:
2Co:4:13: We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Notice also (spirit) is with a small (s)!
So please put this in true perpective!

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Originally posted by evangelist

2Co:5:5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Now the Holy Spirit is given to us as a guarantee!

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Flesh and spirit are two sides of the same coin. Paul wasn't asking them to clear out the defilemen of others, but themselves.

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Quote What?
Why Paul say this, and much more through the whole chapter of 6?
2Co:6:14: Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

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Originally posted by jdubya

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Originally posted by evangelist

Your carnal thinking is falsh and in error because it is not about a man, but about what others and other thing can defile and effect you!
You are twisting completly what Paul is warning about.
Just because the bible mention spirit, it doesn't always mean the born again spirit our has something to do with our third body part or being!
here is another biblical example what I mean which is so clear to see it has nothing to do with our spirits or being, but is an emotion,filling,or motive, or actions, a desire:
2Co:4:13: We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Notice also (spirit) is with a small (s)!
So please put this in true perpective!

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Again, your statements are without merit unless you can show biblical precedence for your interpretation when both flesh and spirit are used together. Paul isn’t warning here, he is commanding them to cleanse the defilements. They have no direct control over the cause of what defiles them or what hinders their holiness. They can’t change a school spirit, depression spirit or a poverty spirit which comes from the outside. They do however, have some control over cleansing the defilements (the effects) of their flesh and spirit. They are nouns and both are singular. Paul uses spirit, not spirits.

Quote Evangelist:
I think your error and confusion is not knowing what is the meaning in that scripture the word(cleansing)!
Do you also know staying away from someone or something is a type of cleaning, and purity?
When I stay away from a gang or criminals and drug addict, even though I was also one of them is a cleansing!
That is why sometime you may say to a drug addict are you clean, or are you going to a drug free center, you are geting cleaned up!
the same principle is paul using in 2 Corithians, so if you still hang around these peole , they will defile you again to be one of them and that is why Paul warn not to be yoke or one with unbelievers, which also mean don't let them convince you into thier sins over your righteousness!


What does a small 's' prove when referring to our spirit. Do you ever see flesh with a capital 'F'? The only time spirit is capitalized is when it is referring to the Holy Spirit, a proper noun. Besides that, biblical koine Greek did not have punctuation including no distinction between uppercase and lower case, so your point is just plain meaningless. Distinctions between our spirit and the Holy Spirit were made by use of articles and with context.

Quote Evangelist:
Yes , all that is true , but the translater are not infallible, so they can and have added alot of thier own philosophy in the contexts, so we need the Holy spirit which know all truth , along with our born again spirit which bear record of the truth!

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Originally posted by evangelist

2Co:5:5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Now the Holy Spirit is given to us as a guarantee!

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Your verse is another attempt to cause a conflict between scripture passages, but even here you are not translating it correctly.

First of all, the Holy Spirit is not our spirit.
Secondly, the Holy Spirit is a pledge or earnest which is similar to a down payment towards the full inheritance.

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

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Flesh and spirit are two sides of the same coin. Paul wasn't asking them to clear out the defilemen of others, but themselves.

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Quote What?
Why Paul say this, and much more through the whole chapter of 6?
2Co:6:14: Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

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You mentioned unbelief and belief being spiritual matters. Amen. Whose spirit?

What spirit?

Do you think that an unbeliever rejects Christ because of an Evil Spirit? If so, then surely God would not hold that against them.

But even you said elsewhere that to reject Jesus is the only sin that will cause your spirit to go to Hell.

So now you are very confused. If this spirit is the same spirit that belongs to the flesh of the person that Paul is speaking to, then why are you trying to claim that it is someone else's spirit?

Spiritual does not mean "unseen" or pertaining to the unseen world. Spiritual pertains to the SPIRIT.

You have adopted a rather New Age pagan definition of spiritual that eliminates God from the equation.

Paul wants his hears to cleans the filthiness/defilement from their flesh and spirit. They got filthy by doing the things mentioned in chapter 6, and elsewhere.

Now why do you think that Paul wants to cleans the flesh and spirit of others and not the people he is writing to?

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

I would also add that context is very important in determining what "spirit" is being referred to. Spirit is not always one's own spirit, or the Holy Spirit in the Bible. You are quite correct on that score. And it is the context that tells us what is being referred to when the word "spirit" is being used.

In chapter 6 it mentions that we should not touch any unclean thing. Why? because it defiles.

What does touching an unclean thing defile? The person doing the touching.

So when Paul asks his hearers to cleanse themselves of defilement, what are they cleansing? Themselves. Their flesh and spirit.

Since they are clensing their own flesh to rid it of uncleanness and unrighteousness, then the spirit that immediately follows could only be their own spirit.

They can't be cleansing their own flesh and the spirit of the age or spirit of unbelief - you can't make an unclean or unrighteous thing clean. You can only clean something that is capable of being cleansed.

The only spirit capable of being cleansed is our own. The Holy Spirit is perfectly and permanently righteous. The spirit of error is itself unclean so it cannot be cleaned, only removed.

The passage links flesh and spirit together, so it is impossible to remove one and not the other, or to cleanse one and not the other.

The warning is against becoming defiled, and in chapter 7 even against defiling anyone else.

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by jdubya

Evan,
First you delayed responding to this text which leads me to believe you went to find out how your some of your teachers dealt with this passage. That's fine. I know you are heavily dependent on them.
However, to then come out and attempt to use shame and basically refer to us as ignorant (or worse) who twist God's word and use an "off the wall" interpretation is an unfortunate tactic that I recognize as form of coercion and manipulation. They don't work.
In order to be an “off the wall” interpretation, this would mean:
1.) That when flesh and spirit are used together elsewhere in scripture, they would be almost exclusively used in the same context that you believe is used in 2Cor. 7.
2.) That our understanding of flesh and spirit as referring to the flesh of man and the spirit of man would be non-existent or extremely rarely used in scripture.
Here is a list of such passages:
Mat 26:41, Mar 14:38, Luk 24:39, Jhn 3:6, 6:63, Rom 8:4,5,6,9,13, 1Cr 5:5, Gal 3:3, 4:29, 5:16,17, 6:8, Phl 3:3, 1Ti 3:16, 1Pe 3:18, 4:6, 1Jo 4:2
Please find where your understanding in 2Cor. 7:1 could reasonably be found even once in the above verses?
If you can’t, then it is your interpretation that is truly “off the wall”.

There are a lot more difficulties with your interpretation on top of these which I will address in subsequent posts, some of which FAL has already addressed.

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First of all I always ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom and sometimes I have to meditiate a couple of days before teaching a truth!
I also been working a side job which I am now working full´time and have not to much time to discuss here , while I also have important other work like my tv, and radio broadcasts!

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