spirit ,soul, and body!
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I have taught on this truth and teaching so many times and I find this is not taught in many churches and would like to get others views on this important topic!I give a very good example and teaching example with curtains explaning about our born again spirits , and how more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
Evangelist,
The Holy Spirit is sealed upon us, "to those whom much is given, much is expected". Christians are held to account. “My sheep listen to My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.”
First requirement for a Bishop:
"Therefore a Bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach."
The Holy Spirit blesses, protects, guides, prunes and educates, disciplines and scourges us, in our cooperation with Him.
And at the end of it all, " All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He (the Son of Man) will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.".
When Christians aren't required to reconcile their actions against a set of objective standards with one person who knows what those objective standards are, then reconciliation with Christ can and does become subjective, relative and obsolete. The invasive nature of sin hides away and personal interpretation overrules Scripture. Obedience becomes optional and sin is subjective to the culture.
Faith is a participation in God's grace. Obedience to His Commandments is one part of our Baptism into Christ. The Trinity doesn't force compliance on any of us. Compliance is a gift and the fruits of the Holy Spirit are many.
Baptism and confirmation don't make us robots nor does it place Christians into an isolationist bubble. We're told to "Go out and spread the Gospel" and to do that it requires consistent participation with sinful people.
Putting on the armor of God requires individual responsibility.
Our Baptismal promises require our “Amen” to the rejection of Evil and our acceptance of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Talk the talk and walk the walk. Prove faith. Work to increase the Body. There’s a wide road and a narrow road. 'One path leads to life, the other leads to death.’
We are promised Eternal life, if we participate with Christ. The Trinity invite, God sets the table, we choose our participation, and Scripture says that we must come “properly dressed” for the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.
If there is anything we are adding onto Christ then you are making void His fullness planted in us by His seed!
If there is a participate part we must do then why you need Christ, because basically you are pointing to yourself as how many brownie points you can get better than others, or even walking the perfect straight religious line to hope Jesus can see no curves in your life from your standards, while you are avoiding Jesus perfect work towards you and placed in you, which you should have freely recieved and not earned!
So again are you agreeing you are still a sinner like Faith testify she is still a sinner??
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Member since 07/10/2003
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Evangelist, you keep throwing around "wisdom not of this world" as if it meant secret knowledge that is not present in the Bible. That is not the case. It is true that the wisdom of God is far superior to the wisdom of this world and the Gospel is far above conventional wisdom, but it is not secret - Christians are not supposed to be Gnostics.
Quote Evangelist:
1 corinthians 2:77But we speak God’s wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
Hidden from the worldly leaders, not from the Bible or from Christians.
1 Corinthians 2 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
None of the princes of the WORLD, the Romans and the Jews who rejected Christ did not have this knowledge, but all the Christians who followed Christ knew it. Jesus taught it in the streets (as recorded in the Gospels), and Paul spread it in his Epistles.
When this passage goes on to speak of the "natural man" and then compares him to the one who is spriitual, you seem to think that they are one in the same person but just two sides of the coin - flesh versus spirit. NOT SO.
The natural man does not have the spirit of God in him. The natural man is not a Temple of the Holy Spirit, that is why all this is foolishness. But the spiritual man has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The Spiritual Man, is a flesh and blood human being that has not only his own spirit, but also the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide him.
Jesus was truly man, with a flesh and blood body. He was perfect in the flesh as well as the spirit.
We are to be like Him. Perfect in every way, not just in spirit.
Quote Evangelist:
It first starts from the inside which is with our born again spirits and sooner or latter the perfection is working out into where the battle grounds of your mind and into your body day , by day and year for years!
The Bible says no such thing. The Holy Spirit is perfect inside of us, but He bears witness with our spirit to renew the whole person, just just parts.
You keep looking for perfect flesh and blood people as a sign that they are perfected and then decide that if the body is not beautiful by man's standards then it has not happened, but that is man's judgment, not God's.
At the Resurrection, our bodies will be gloried and become incorruptible, but the seed that must die to become this glorious body, is our own. We are a new creature in Christ, body mind and soul already - but some take longer to embrace what they have already become.
Your flesh and blood body is already a Temple of God. It is already a member of the Body of Christ on earth.
There have been Catholic saints who were perfect even in the flesh and their bodies testify to this fact by remaining incorrupt as a sign to us of their power in Christ even after death.
Forget the carnal mind. The carnal mind lusts after the flesh. The spiritual mind seeks after God, seeking to preserve the flesh from every stain of sin.
Your mind is clearly still very carnal if you cannot see the difference.
All sin flows from the Heart. As does all the good that we do. That is why God judges the Heart.
It does not matter what man sees. A preacher can appear holy to his congregation and by all accounts seem to be a saint, but God sees even what is done in secret, what the world does not see. The preacher's sin is great because to whom much is given, much more is expected.
It is easy to judge the harlot, claiming that she is damned, yet God sees into her heart and knows if she sins for pleasure's sake or out of necessity to put food on the table for herself or her child. God knows if she wants to be all that He wants her to be but stumbles due to poor circumstance.
Both need to repent, but God has mercy for those who are doing the best that they can. Even when they sin.
The born again spirit is not sheilded from the effects of sin. The born again spirit combined with the born again soul is the animating force within our born again body. We are a whole person, not a fragmented person that is being redeemed in pieces.
If your born again spirit was not promised to be sealed and protected then none of us can have eterna redemption or be redeemed and blessed while we are living in this world.
Eph 1:13.
By ourselves it would be impossible, but with Christ all things are possible. Where is your faith? 
To not know also that the Holy Spirit is protected as such not to sin and can't is the exact same thing about a person been born again!
one love
? The Holy Spirit cannot sin. He is GOD.
You don't understand. We are a new creature in Christ. Entirely. We don't have to be what we were before. Let it go.
Trust in Christ and He can help you be all that the Father wants you to be.
Did your own father want you to be less than perfect?
I know that my own earthly father understood that a child of his might not be perfect, but he still hoped that we would be. He wanted the best for us. For us to avoid sin, to enjoy happy marriages if we married, to have children of our own if we should marry, to be educated and clean and have enough to eat and a roof over our heads.
Do you think that God the Father wants less than that?
Do you honestly believe that God is not capable of helping you be absolutely perfect?
Do you think that God wants any of His children to be OK with sex before marriage or adultery or drugs or stealing or anything else that is unrighteous? Would your own father be happy with that?
Look at how far you have come already. God has been working in you and you have left so much of your old life behind. Just imagine how far you could come if you just let your old man go and cooperated with God?
God has blessed me so abundantly that I can scarcely beleive it. I share what I know because of the good it has done for me and for others. You keep looking for cash and good health. That is the least of it. Those appeal to the flesh and might encourage someone to seek the faith who had none before, but that isn't spiritual and it does not even begin to compare to what God can do for us, even in this lifetime.
But the main part what you are doing and not seeing is that you are limiting God at what He has already done for us and you are trying to put the level on yourself to try to get God to accept you or try to hope God will force you to be perfect!
You are trying with all your self righteousness to be honored by God when He has already honored by you being in Christ jesus a righteous saint and no more being or having anything to do with any bad name as a sinner still a sinner or being a christian and sinner at the same time which is impossible by God to accept a luke warm person!
Either you are for Him or against!
You can't be half pregnant and expect a baby , you are either pregnant or you are not!
It is also like a womaen who is pregnant, they either seen as being a mother of that child even when the child is not born yet, so see's God as His sons and daughters fully saved and redeemed and justified in our pregnant body with the the Holy Spirit as our child or seed in us as such!
Either you have the seed planted in you to produce or you don't and you are still a sinner!
the born again seed planted in us is our spiritual birth taken placed in us as the baby being Jesus when he walk on this earth ministering to His diciples and people!
that is why the new born again birth is the greatest miracle ever known to man and also why alot of unbelievers can't accept the new birth because it is too hgood to be true and too spiritual , to be understood from mans logical thinking and human reasoning!
that is why 1 Corithians chapter 1 and two should be so understood by so called religious teachers, so know why there is so much confusions in the churchy!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Faith do you have to repent everytime to gain your righteousness??
So not repenting everytime you sin is how your lose your righteousness??
Also ask your pope where does a born again spirit come from and where did the Holy Spirit come from??
Also ask does the born again spirit still has the same DNA as the Holy Spirit in many ways??
one love
If we lose our righteousness through our refusal to repent, then the only way to get it back is through repentence.
Quote Evangelist:
This would mean that the finished work of the cross only did a certain part for us until the next time we fall, so eternal redemption, have no effect , because we are asking for the blood sacrafice over andover again to get those individuals sins washed away and clean only by the blood of Jesus!
Do you also know that one drop of Jesus Blood is enough to wash all the sins of the world aways forever?
I mean that one drop was valid enough for a complete sacrific for all man kind!
What are you talking about??????????????????????????
There is no need for a repeated blood sacrifice in my theology. The Blood is always available for every generation and for every sin, without the need to repeat Christ's death on the cross.
To access that Blood, all we need to do is repent of our sins. We do this when we first come to Christ. Jesus didn't need to die again for that did HE? NO. And the Bible plainly states that when we are born again all of our PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED sins are washed away as if they had never been. But if we sin again, we need to repent again. The Bible shows this clearly in numerous places.
Just like Jesus did not need to go back on the cross when I was born again, HE does not need to go back there when I repent. Same blood that is always there, even for my children and my future grandchildren.
Every spirit comes from God. Even the fallen Angels who are spirit came from God.
Quote Evangelist:
But a brand new creature is something more powerful than al the angels in heaven and any other creature or any other spiritual thing , except the Holy Spirit itself!
Amen, and brand new HUMAN creatures include a spirit and a soul and a flesh and blood body.
But really God has put Jesus spirit literaly in us as that born again creature, and that is the good news of the gospel!
Jesus does come to live in us as we live Him. But that is not your new born again spirit. That is Jesus Christ. And John 15 explains how we remain in that wonderful relationship.
That is why I have all the fullness of Christ in my born again spirit, and my old spirit has died and is buried in Christ or better to say according to Romans 6 buried in a grave yard 6 feet deep, and has turn into dust as such to say!
Your old spirit was not literally buried or otherwise destroyed, it was renewed by the Holy Spirit. And you are a member of the Body of Christ, and as such He is in you, but only if you abide in Him. John 15 explains how.
If you doubt, your spirit and soul are inseparable. They cannot be separated except by God who never separates soul from spirit. Think back to before you were born again. If you can remember that period, then your spirit is the same spirit and not a totally separate brand new spirit. But no worries, just as God created Adam from dust, HE can renew our spirits so that they are sparking clean, and the same with our bodies and souls too.
Spirits do not have DNA, but if you are asking if they are of the same type of substance, I suppose they are, but the Holy Spirit is God and our spirit is not God. Our spirit is the one that God gave us at our conception. What we receive when we are born again is the Holy Spirit to help renew us, body, mind and spirit.
Quote Evangelist:
If you are agreeing that our born again spirit is some way the same DNA (DNA is a molecule chain, physical matter. Spirits do not have physical matter), then our born again DNA must first of all have the substance of God holyness and righteousness, and the fullness of God in it, even though it is not God or the Holy Spirit Himself!
When we are first born again, yes, our whole being is perfectly holy and righteous just like Jesus was. Body, mind and spirit.
In your family is all the same family blood as such but everyone is different in Character , but when blood is checked , it can be proven you all come from the same family, the same, when we get check we can be proven to come from God heaven family and no unclean thing is in Him or heaven correct?
Wrong. We are family by adoption, not blood or spirit. All spirits come from God, even Satan, so that is not the criteria.
So are we in this world as biorn again believers!
If you omit your previous paragraph, we are like Christ when we are baptized into Christ. We are part of the Body of Christ and as we abide in Him, He abides in us.
We were made perfect, and have all the graces and faith to remain perfect, but sometimes we falter and seek to return from whence we came. The Bible warns against this so often. But even if we stumble, Jesus gave us the means to come back to Him, as often as it takes.
The problem is that you accept that you were made perfect and then the first sign of trouble, instead of taking advantage of all the gifts that Jesus gave us, you come up with excuses as to how you can still be perfect when you flesh is weak. Jesus knew we were weak when He died for us. Let Him help you.
Quote Evangelist:
If you are agreeing that our born again spirit is some way the same DNA , then our born again DNA must first of all have the substance of God holyness and righteousness, and the fullness of God in it, even though it is not God or the Holy Spirit Himself!
In your family is all the same family blood as such but everyone is different in Character , but when blood is checked , it can be proven you all come from the same family, the same, when we get check we can be proven to come from God heaven family and no unclean thing is in Him or heaven correct?
So are we in this world as biorn again believers!
Now if you say we still have our natural sinful DNA in our born again spirit ,then we atre children of satan , and still have all satan and demonic DNA, and no one can get born again , and your philosophy would stand as truth°!
That is all hogwash and has nothing to do with my theology or anything else.
If a born again Christian commits a mortal sin, then it does not matter if his spirit is sealed in an indestructable capsule - the spirit shares the fate of the flesh. If the flesh commits a mortal sin, the flesh will go to Hell and take the spirit with it.
The Bible warned against this so many times you have to be willfully blind not to see it.
Your carnal concept of the born again spirit is like you are trying to put new wine in an old wine skin, and the old wine skin bottle will bust, and that is a biblical fact you need to ask God to give the understanding why this was said and what it means !
one love
The carnal mind seeks excuses to be able to sin.
The spiritual mind does not.
Ask the Holy Spirit to explain this to you.
Even Better than what you are saying is nowing the truth that our spiritual mind can't sin, and you need to ask the Holy Spirit to give you spiritual understanding on this!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
So FAITH AT LARGE just for the Heck of wasting time let start with the truth on Roman 6 teachings!
Ro:6:1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Ro:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Ro:6:3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Let's start with these three verses in biblical contexts!
First of all Paul is talking about us, as saying (we), and Paul is asking a question, but is also making a statement in proving a true point in what he is saying, like answering a dum question, can you see to this point FAITH??
The dum question is like what you and many other religious people ask when you are saying we are giving a licence to sin, or permission to sin and do as we like according to our fallen nature mind and the body follows along in that sinful works can you see to this point FAITH?
Also Paul is mentioning grace which he is knowing that people understand grace as an unmeritable gift or uncondition work or reward as such just given to us out of Jesus perfection and what Jesus has already done for us and done towards us in all His righteousness which was expalined so clearly in Romans 5!
This is why I kept asking you first step to understand Romans 5 before going to his chapter, because it all fits perfectly together in contexts and bible priciples!
As we also go through this , i hope this chapter and chapter 5 wil show you the true teaching of Paul also about water baptism ,VS the spiritual baptism, and also how the spiritual baptism saved us and made us born again instantly even without getting wet before men and yourself!
But before we go any further are you agreeing with me so far and if not please speak your catholic understanding on this so far!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Location: USA
Evangelist,
God has never needed us. Nothing I do will improve on Him or His sacrifice. But He created us and He knows that we need Him to heal our self inflicted wounds.
He told us to be holy, to do the Commandments, and to pick up our cross and follow Him.
He didn't say, "Believe you are holy but don't put the actual Commandments into practice in your life."
Concerning the hypocrisy of the Pharisees; Christ told His followers to "Do what they tell you but don't do what they do."
We need Him so that we can be holy, so that we can learn to live with His other creations (the people around us who also have self-inflicted / other-inflicted wounds).
You are aware of what Jesus said about our works: John 14:12-14?
Two Commandments: Love God with your whole heart, mind and soul. And love your neighbor as you would yourself.
I'm not self-rightous, I'm honest about my sin, I humbly accept acknowledgement of my sins and the sins of others. I've "been there and done that" and I can offer empathy and guidance for those who are in conversion.
If we are Christians, we are grace filled sinners with choices to make in our conversion toward Christ.
Another of Christ's "Amen, Amen, I say to you" statements...
quote:
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.
Is John 14:12-14 also a parable, that shouldn't be taken at face value?
My physical works will be tested - burned up - at the end of my life and what I will have remaining is a soul endowed with my character.
Edited by bwellmysoul on 06/08/2012 08:52:15
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quote:
Even Better than what you are saying is nowing the truth that our spiritual mind can't sin, and you need to ask the Holy Spirit to give you spiritual understanding on this!
I did. He said you are mistaken. If our spiritual mind can't sin then our born again bodies could not sin either. Our bodies are not automatons - they require direction from our spiritual minds before they can lift a finger.
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
So FAITH AT LARGE just for the Heck of wasting time let start with the truth on Roman 6 teachings!
Ro:6:1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Ro:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Ro:6:3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Let's start with these three verses in biblical contexts!
First of all Paul is talking about us, as saying (we), and Paul is asking a question, but is also making a statement in proving a true point in what he is saying, like answering a dum question, can you see to this point FAITH??
Plain as day. It should be a rhetorical question and the one's he was writing to had it so messed up. They forgot this very simple fact and were treating their new TEMPLES as if they were not.
The dum question is like what you and many other religious people ask when you are saying we are giving a licence to sin, or permission to sin and do as we like according to our fallen nature mind and the body follows along in that sinful works can you see to this point FAITH?
Not sure if you are expressing yourself as well as you meant to. But if you are affirming what Paul is saying, that we do not have permission to sin or act according to our old ways, then yes I see that point as well. I have said it often enough myself.
Also Paul is mentioning grace which he is knowing that people understand grace as an unmeritable gift or uncondition work or reward as such just given to us out of Jesus perfection and what Jesus has already done for us and done towards us in all His righteousness which was expalined so clearly in Romans 5!
Initial Grace was a free gift to everyone. We did not merit it, deserve it or do anything at all to gain it. I have said that many times as well. Grace is what moves us to do what is good.
This is why I kept asking you first step to understand Romans 5 before going to his chapter, because it all fits perfectly together in contexts and bible priciples!
True, and starting at chapter 1 would be even better. But we can review Chapter 5 before heading into Chapter 6 and just interject passages from previous chapters where necessary for clarification.
As we also go through this , i hope this chapter and chapter 5 wil show you the true teaching of Paul also about water baptism ,VS the spiritual baptism, and also how the spiritual baptism saved us and made us born again instantly even without getting wet before men and yourself!
There is no "VS" where baptism is concerned, you cannot have one without the other outside of a special dispensation from Almighty God, and those are extremely rare. We can experience spiritual conversion at any time and even many times throughout our life, but that is not spiritual baptism, just an extension of it.
But before we go any further are you agreeing with me so far and if not please speak your catholic understanding on this so far!
one love
I agree with most. The second last paragraph is not statement of belief but an anouncement of what you think you are going to teach me, I pointed out where we differ on that score. I expect that we will also differ on what you think Paul teaches about water baptism, but I will wait until we get there. I look forward to seeing your interpretations of Romans 5 and 6.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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And just to be clear before we start.
In the Bible, the Jews had many washings/baptisms. And John the Baptist baptized with water only, but this was only a pre-cursor baptism that was never used again after John was executed. This baptism was impressive, but was not Christian baptism.
For Christians there is only ONE Baptism as Paul stated in Ephesians. Not two. Not three. Just ONE.
Philip did not baptize the Ethiopian Eunuch with John's baptism but with Christian baptism.
Paul likewise baptized not with John's baptism, but with Christian baptism. ONE baptism.
There is no water versus spirit. It is water AND spirit.
Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, but here HE gave it something more. This is why Jesus had to be baptized by John - Jesus had no sin, but this elevated a simple water baptism into baptism by the Holy Spirit. After this event, Jesus had His own disciples baptizing. No longer baptizing with water only as John had done.
Matthew 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Some say that this verse from John speaks of natural and spiritual birth, but it does not cover natural birth at all. Only rebirth through water and spirit. Humans are never said to be born of water in the Bible.
John 3:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
Evangelist,
God has never needed us. Nothing I do will improve on Him or His sacrifice. But He created us and He knows that we need Him to heal our self inflicted wounds.
He told us to be holy, to do the Commandments, and to pick up our cross and follow Him.
Quote Evangelist:
Do you know why Jesus said this or the purpose of doing these thing?
WHY?
He didn't say, "Believe you are holy but don't put the actual Commandments into practice in your life."
Quote Evangelist:
It the oppersite motive and it should be that we are doer because He first loved us unconditionally and because we believe who we are in Christ Jesus , that after knowing that God see's us born again believers like little Christs and He loves us in our Christ new nature which is spiritual.
So when God see us, He see all of Christ before us in all His perfection and righteousness.
Joh:1:16: And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
This is a done deal statemnent of faith given to us already! WWWOOOWWW! 
Concerning the hypocrisy of the Pharisees; Christ told His followers to "Do what they tell you but don't do what they do."
Quote Evangelist:
But out of what motive, out of tryingto become a obedient soldier, or being a performer out of the return love and thanksgiving??
We need Him so that we can be holy, so that we can learn to live with His other creations (the people around us who also have self-inflicted / other-inflicted wounds).
Quote Evangelist:
That a half truth but the main point is that He loves us so much , and more thn we can put into word because we are His creation He so loves that he inputted this holyness in us through Jesus so people will see this impartment or this gift come out of us into this dark world with so much love and thankgiving , that people will want what we already have so much that revivals world wide will break out because of the Jesus in us and coming out of us because of knowing His uncondition love and grace and mercy to us , who gave us already eternal life! WWWWOOOWWW!
John 3:16
You are aware of what Jesus said about our works: John 14:12-14?
Two Commandments: Love God with your whole heart, mind and soul. And love your neighbor as you would yourself.
Quote Evangelist:
Notice the ley motive as you have quoted yourself is LOVE, and notice there was no mention of our born again spirits, because the Born again spirit is one with God and has already is whole with God!WWWOOOWW!
I'm not self-rightous, I'm honest about my sin, I humbly accept acknowledgement of my sins and the sins of others. I've "been there and done that" and I can offer empathy and guidance for those who are in conversion.
Quote Evangelist:
I am honest about my not being self righteousness, but being Holy, Justified, sanctified and righteous in my born again spirit , with no sins whatsoever, and on top of all that I am perfect as Jesus is now in my new spirit born from God! WWWWOOOWW!
If we are Christians, we are grace filled sinners with choices to make in our conversion toward Christ.
Quote Evangelist:
You must speak to yourself on that demonic lie!
Either you are grace filled , or you are a sinner, and you need to make a choice and become one day a grace filled sister period!
Stop degrading yourself to the level of demon and satan worshipers as a sinner any longer, please in the Name of Jesus FAITH! 
Another of Christ's "Amen, Amen, I say to you" statements...
quote:
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.
Is John 14:12-14 also a parable, that shouldn't be taken at face value?
My physical works will be tested - burned up - at the end of my life and what I will have remaining is a soul endowed with my character.
That is why in those verses in John 14 you need the promises of God word to abid in you, and don't throw away God final authority of the word of God the bible with your pope or religious doctrines of me!
When you start believing God word to be alive and spiritual and life and fullness of peace in your life nothing whatsoever wil bother you or worry you, and when God word comes alives in Your life people will line up at your front door to ask you how they can have what you got and you should lead them to the bible which you are keeping as your commandments and showing the world whatsoever the bible claims is your it must come to past, because again the Bible is alive and powerful than any two edeged sword!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Ro:6:3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Our spirits are the part of us that became born again Joh 3:3), and this is the part of us that Paul was referring to as being baptized into Jesus and His death M't:26:41: Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. Our physical bodies are not dead, and our souls are not dead. But our old man died with Christ which we will see FAITH in Ro 6:6 which you are waiting to deal with this!
Note 5 at Ro 6:3: The baptism that is being spoken of here in Ro 6:3-4 is not water baptism. Heb 6:2 speaks of the doctrine of baptisms (plural), clearly stating that there is more than one kind of baptism.
It is easy to see that there is a difference between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism into the body of Christ. When John the Baptist spoke of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in:
M't:3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: he said that Jesus is the baptizer and the Holy Spirit is the one that we are being baptized with! But in 1Co 12:13, Paul said that the Holy Spirit is the baptizer and the body of Christ is what we are being baptized into. So, there are two different baptizer and two different systems that we are being baptized into, leaving no doubt that these are two different baptisms.
The mistake is with the word (baptism) with water baptism has led many people to incorrectly interpret Ro 6:3,4 as speaking of water baptism.
Some have even use these verses to prove that water baptism is the act that causes salvation, but, that is not what Paul was saying and, in fact, is the exact opposite of every point that he had made in the book of Romans for salvation by grace through faith. This is not speaking of the sign of water baptism seen in Mr 16:16 and Ac 2:38.
Paul was speaking of the act where all of us who put saving faith in Jesus as our Lord are automatically and instantly baptized into Jesus and all that He paid for us 1Co 12:13 and :
Col:2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col:2:12: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col:2:13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;. He was simply stating that as believers, we have become dead to sin Ro 6:6 through the death of Jesus which we will deal deeply and in context very soon in our Romans study in truth and rightly dividing the truth of the living word of God.
Jesus didn't die for His sins He had none!
He died for our sins according too:
1Pe:2:24: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
His death was for us, and all the benefits to be obtained through His death and resurrection are for our advantage and constitute we have!
So do you agree so we can go on to verse 4??
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Absolutely not. Paul stated in Ephesions that there is ONE Lord, ONE Faith and ONE BAPTISM.
You are the one who separates water from spirit. The Bible does not.
You are the one who separates spirit from body. The Bible does not.
The mistake you make is that you assume that the Apostles and Presbyters operate separate from Jesus. According to Paul, he acted "in persona Christi" - in the person of Christ. This is true for the forgiveness of sins, which was the context for when Paul said that, but it is also true every time a presbyter baptizes a new member of the Body of Christ.
Acts 8:35-37 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Jesus taught his Apostles to baptize in His Name. They baptized with water after the example that He gave them. When the Eunuch was taught by Philip, he associated water with baptism. At no time did he ask for a separate spiritual baptism, and yet we know that the spirit does not come from belief alone as proven by Acts 19. In Acts 19, they believed but had not received the Holy Ghost which is spiritual baptism. Belief does not do this. John the Baptist's baptism does not do this. Only Christian baptism could and this is what Paul gave them and this included the laying on of hands through which the Holy Spirit was given.
Jesus preached water baptism. Paul says that there is ONE baptism. Do you really expect me to believe that Paul was preaching a different baptism than the one Jesus taught and commanded His disciples to give to all nations?
Matthew 28:19-20 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
For nearly 2000 years, we have been baptizing with water and spirit in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and then Evangelist comes along and says, sorry, John the Baptism messed it all up by calling spirit baptism "Baptism" and Jesus calling water baptism "Baptism" and thus most Christians for 2000 years, including the Apostles as seen with Philip above, were baptizing with water, when they should have been baptizing only with the spirit.
Wrong. Paul knew about every kind of Judaeo-Christian baptism, and yet he stated that for Christians there is only ONE Baptism. Period. End of story.
If water baptism was not the ONE CHRISTIAN BAPTISM, then Philip would not have baptized the Eunuch with water.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 06/09/2012 08:35:13
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
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And no where does it say in John 3:3 or elsewhere that only our spirits are born again.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Absolutely not. Paul stated in Ephesions that there is ONE Lord, ONE Faith and ONE BAPTISM.
You are the one who separates water from spirit. The Bible does not.
You are the one who separates spirit from body. The Bible does not.
The mistake you make is that you assume that the Apostles and Presbyters operate separate from Jesus. According to Paul, he acted "in persona Christi" - in the person of Christ. This is true for the forgiveness of sins, which was the context for when Paul said that, but it is also true every time a presbyter baptizes a new member of the Body of Christ.
Acts 8:35-37 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Jesus taught his Apostles to baptize in His Name. They baptized with water after the example that He gave them. When the Eunuch was taught by Philip, he associated water with baptism. At no time did he ask for a separate spiritual baptism, and yet we know that the spirit does not come from belief alone as proven by Acts 19. In Acts 19, they believed but had not received the Holy Ghost which is spiritual baptism. Belief does not do this. John the Baptist's baptism does not do this. Only Christian baptism could and this is what Paul gave them and this included the laying on of hands through which the Holy Spirit was given.
Jesus preached water baptism. Paul says that there is ONE baptism. Do you really expect me to believe that Paul was preaching a different baptism than the one Jesus taught and commanded His disciples to give to all nations?
Matthew 28:19-20 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
For nearly 2000 years, we have been baptizing with water and spirit in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and then Evangelist comes along and says, sorry, John the Baptism messed it all up by calling spirit baptism "Baptism" and Jesus calling water baptism "Baptism" and thus most Christians for 2000 years, including the Apostles as seen with Philip above, were baptizing with water, when they should have been baptizing only with the spirit.
Wrong. Paul knew about every kind of Judaeo-Christian baptism, and yet he stated that for Christians there is only ONE Baptism. Period. End of story.
If water baptism was not the ONE CHRISTIAN BAPTISM, then Philip would not have baptized the Eunuch with water.
So are you also another person who translate the bible as everywhere in the bible written "baptism" is always water baptism like the church of Christ believes and is a doctrine of faith to that church??
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
And no where does it say in John 3:3 or elsewhere that only our spirits are born again.
Look at the contexts of the spiritual teaching in John also how it is stated it has nothing to do with a natural birth, so the only other option is a spiritual birth!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Exactly. Now you see it. To be born of water AND spirit is a reference to Christian baptism where the water used is the symbol for the Holy Spirit the comes down. The symbol represents the spiritual reality of what is really happening.
Every reference to baptism, where it pertains to Christian baptism, involves the use of water. Paul said there is only one baptism, so why do you keep adding a second separate baptism and turning water baptism into a dead work?
We don't do dead works any more.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Exactly. Now you see it. To be born of water AND spirit is a reference to Christian baptism where the water used is the symbol for the Holy Spirit the comes down. The symbol represents the spiritual reality of what is really happening.
Every reference to baptism, where it pertains to Christian baptism, involves the use of water. Paul said there is only one baptism, so why do you keep adding a second separate baptism and turning water baptism into a dead work?
We don't do dead works any more.
I am glad you agree with that scripture in John as a spiritual teaching from Jesus!
Being born of water is not speaking of water baptism as being essential for salvation. People were born again before they were baptized in water (Joh 20:28 with Ro 10:9). Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized in water (Ac 10:44-48), as evidenced by the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Ac 10:45) whom Jesus said the world (lost) could not receive (Joh 14:17). When Peter defended his visit to Cornelius before the church in Jerusalem (Ac 11:1-18), he was trying to prove to the Jewish believers that God had granted salvation to the Gentiles also. He used the fact that they had received the Holy Spirit as proof of their new birth, but he didn't mention water baptism. If the early church had used water baptism to produce salvation, Peter certainly would have been questioned about this.
In 1Co 1:17, Paul said, "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel." While in no way discrediting water baptism, Paul stated that it was not the Gospel. Some groups today spend much more time preaching water baptism than they do proclaiming the redemptive work of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Himself was baptized in water, but it certainly wasn't to produce forgiveness of sins (see note 4 at Mt 3:11 and note 9 at Mr 16:16).
This water could be speaking of the Word of God (Joh 15:3, Eph 5:26, Jas 1:18, and 1Pe 1:23)
Verse 4 make it very clear Jesus is not talking about anything concerning this world five senses we live by, and water you can feel and see, and hear so that is out of the picture!
You also didn't answer me directly , so is every where mention in the bible the word "baptism" meaning a water baptism regardless of the context is what is symbolic, because there is only one baptism as you interpretate in the natural?
After you answer this then we can continure with verse 4!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 06/11/2012 00:32:03
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