spirit ,soul, and body!

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Exactly. Now you see it. To be born of water AND spirit is a reference to Christian baptism where the water used is the symbol for the Holy Spirit the comes down. The symbol represents the spiritual reality of what is really happening.

Every reference to baptism, where it pertains to Christian baptism, involves the use of water. Paul said there is only one baptism, so why do you keep adding a second separate baptism and turning water baptism into a dead work?

We don't do dead works any more.

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I am glad you agree with that scripture in John as a spiritual teaching from Jesus!

Being born of water is not speaking of water baptism as being essential for salvation.

So when Peter answered the question "what must we do" with "believe AND be baptized" - he was joking?

That baptism was a reference to Christian baptism with WATER - these Jews from all over did not know anything about any such nonsense as spirit baptism apart from water baptism. That did not exist in their culture. And when Jesus as the Apostles spoke to them about baptism, they ALWAYS included water, whether speaking of Moses or anyone else.

People were born again before they were baptized in water (Joh 20:28 with Ro 10:9).

Those passages make NO REFERENCE to being born again. Please do not insert your own ideas into the texts. Coming to faith is not the same thing as being born again. The Parable of the Sower indicates that many will come to belief in Christ, but if there is not fertile ground, they will fall away again.

Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized in water (Ac 10:44-48), as evidenced by the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Ac 10:45)

That was not baptism before the water baptism, or being born again - it was a sign from God that Gentiles could be baptized. This was a unique experience and Acts 19:1-7 proves that belief alone DOES NOT bring about the Holy Spirit or the gift of tongues.

whom Jesus said the world (lost) could not receive (Joh 14:17).

True, but this verse is not a reference to either being born again or baptism. Please stick to the topic at hand. There is a spirit of truth and a spirit of error - but both are separate topics.

When Peter defended his visit to Cornelius before the church in Jerusalem (Ac 11:1-18), he was trying to prove to the Jewish believers that God had granted salvation to the Gentiles also. He used the fact that they had received the Holy Spirit as proof of their new birth, but he didn't mention water baptism.

He sure did in Chapter 10. Why do you tell such lies?

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Evidently, they had NOT been baptized even though the Holy Spirit came down. They were not baptized until they were baptized with water.

Peter did not need to repeat that they were water baptized in chapter 11 because he had already said it. And the issue was whether they would be eligible to be baptized in the first place - that is why the sign from God was necessary.

Acts 8 states that ONLY those who had been baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit received the Holy Spirit - baptism ALWAYS came first. So too in Acts 19. Acts 10 was the exception because they were GENTILES. IF God had NOT given that sign, you and I would not be Christian today. We would have been excluded from the Covenant.

BUT, God had always planned for Gentiles to be included and thus did provide that sign so that all could be saved.

If the early church had used water baptism to produce salvation, Peter certainly would have been questioned about this.

He was. Acts 2:37-38.

In 1Co 1:17, Paul said, "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel." While in no way discrediting water baptism, Paul stated that it was not the Gospel.

No. At no time did Paul ever state that this was not the gospel. Read the full context of that verse. Paul was chastizing those who were using the holy sacrament baptism to create divisions among themselves - please study that whole chapter and meditate on this. Jesus prayed for UNITY. Paul preached UNITY. The early Church required the constant teaching of Paul and the Apostles to ensure UNITY. HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU READ THAT VERSE AND COME UP WITH BASHING BAPTISM????

Some groups today spend much more time preaching water baptism than they do proclaiming the redemptive work of Jesus Christ.

I wouldn't know. That is certainly not true in my Church. But given all those who get worked up over water baptism only being by total submersion and only after a certain age, I can see that some are too fixated on do's and don'ts that they miss the point.

Jesus Himself was baptized in water, but it certainly wasn't to produce forgiveness of sins (see note 4 at Mt 3:11 and note 9 at Mr 16:16).

Notes are not inspired. And if those notes say that it wasn't to produce forgiveness of sins, then they are dead wrong:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Since Acts 8 stated that ONLYL those who had been baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit had received the Holy Spirit, and Acts 19 showed that beleif alone DID NOT DO THIS, then the reference is to Baptism, not belief.

Even John the Baptist preached baptism for the remission of sins:

Mark 1:4 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

So please stop this nonsense about baptism not being related to the remission of sins. This is the point of baptism. IT IS for the remission of sins and to baptize us into the Body of Christ. What on earth did you think it was for????

Why do you preach dead works. I don't do dead works. I only do works that Christ gave to be effecatious for me. Dead works that are only done for show???? That is so OT. Leave it there.

If you don't believe that water baptism does something, then why bother? Do you honestly believe that Jesus commanded His Apostles to baptize all nations for show? Most were done in secret to avoid execution.

This water could be speaking of the Word of God (Joh 15:3, Eph 5:26, Jas 1:18, and 1Pe 1:23)

No. The constant use of water in the Bible as a symble for the Holy Spirit is WHY we use it for baptism.

Don't forget this one:

John 7:38 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Verse 4 make it very clear Jesus is not talking about anything concerning this world five senses we live by, and water you can feel and see, and hear so that is out of the picture!

Verse 4 was not speaking about the process of getting born again or baptism (the two are the same thing, but you keep separating them). This is all about living as Christians IN Christ. Jesus was both physical and spiritual. And so are we in the Body of Christ. My flesh and blood hand is a member of the Body of Christ. My foot is also. So is my heart. We all have different roles within the Body of Christ, but we carry out those roles in the FLESH as well as the spirit - feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. Even healing the sick and speaking in tongues - try doing either without lifting a hand or moving your lips or tongue.

You also didn't answer me directly , so is every where mention in the bible the word "baptism" meaning a water baptism regardless of the context is what is symbolic, because there is only one baptism as you interpretate in the natural?

I did answer, but clearly you didn't understand. There are references that are purely symbolic:

Matthew 20:21-23 21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

This is not a reference to Christian baptism, but another kind. This does not involve water but blood.

But Christian baptism always refers to water baptism. If it did not, they would have to specify which was meant. You are reading various passages through the lens of your modern, man-made tradition. You read baptism and insert whatever view of baptism you think it ought to be. But first century Jews and Christians did not have your newly invented tradition to go by. All they knew was that if a person gets baptized, they get wet.

After you answer this then we can continure with verse 4!

one love

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Exactly. Now you see it. To be born of water AND spirit is a reference to Christian baptism where the water used is the symbol for the Holy Spirit the comes down. The symbol represents the spiritual reality of what is really happening.

Every reference to baptism, where it pertains to Christian baptism, involves the use of water. Paul said there is only one baptism, so why do you keep adding a second separate baptism and turning water baptism into a dead work?

We don't do dead works any more.

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I am glad you agree with that scripture in John as a spiritual teaching from Jesus!

Being born of water is not speaking of water baptism as being essential for salvation.

So when Peter answered the question "what must we do" with "believe AND be baptized" - he was joking?

That baptism was a reference to Christian baptism with WATER - these Jews from all over did not know anything about any such nonsense as spirit baptism apart from water baptism. That did not exist in their culture. And when Jesus as the Apostles spoke to them about baptism, they ALWAYS included water, whether speaking of Moses or anyone else.

People were born again before they were baptized in water (Joh 20:28 with Ro 10:9).

Those passages make NO REFERENCE to being born again. Please do not insert your own ideas into the texts. Coming to faith is not the same thing as being born again. The Parable of the Sower indicates that many will come to belief in Christ, but if there is not fertile ground, they will fall away again.

Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized in water (Ac 10:44-48), as evidenced by the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Ac 10:45)

That was not baptism before the water baptism, or being born again - it was a sign from God that Gentiles could be baptized. This was a unique experience and Acts 19:1-7 proves that belief alone DOES NOT bring about the Holy Spirit or the gift of tongues.

whom Jesus said the world (lost) could not receive (Joh 14:17).

True, but this verse is not a reference to either being born again or baptism. Please stick to the topic at hand. There is a spirit of truth and a spirit of error - but both are separate topics.

When Peter defended his visit to Cornelius before the church in Jerusalem (Ac 11:1-18), he was trying to prove to the Jewish believers that God had granted salvation to the Gentiles also. He used the fact that they had received the Holy Spirit as proof of their new birth, but he didn't mention water baptism.

He sure did in Chapter 10. Why do you tell such lies?

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Evidently, they had NOT been baptized even though the Holy Spirit came down. They were not baptized until they were baptized with water.

Peter did not need to repeat that they were water baptized in chapter 11 because he had already said it. And the issue was whether they would be eligible to be baptized in the first place - that is why the sign from God was necessary.

Acts 8 states that ONLY those who had been baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit received the Holy Spirit - baptism ALWAYS came first. So too in Acts 19. Acts 10 was the exception because they were GENTILES. IF God had NOT given that sign, you and I would not be Christian today. We would have been excluded from the Covenant.

BUT, God had always planned for Gentiles to be included and thus did provide that sign so that all could be saved.

If the early church had used water baptism to produce salvation, Peter certainly would have been questioned about this.

He was. Acts 2:37-38.

In 1Co 1:17, Paul said, "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel." While in no way discrediting water baptism, Paul stated that it was not the Gospel.

No. At no time did Paul ever state that this was not the gospel. Read the full context of that verse. Paul was chastizing those who were using the holy sacrament baptism to create divisions among themselves - please study that whole chapter and meditate on this. Jesus prayed for UNITY. Paul preached UNITY. The early Church required the constant teaching of Paul and the Apostles to ensure UNITY. HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU READ THAT VERSE AND COME UP WITH BASHING BAPTISM????

Some groups today spend much more time preaching water baptism than they do proclaiming the redemptive work of Jesus Christ.

I wouldn't know. That is certainly not true in my Church. But given all those who get worked up over water baptism only being by total submersion and only after a certain age, I can see that some are too fixated on do's and don'ts that they miss the point.

Jesus Himself was baptized in water, but it certainly wasn't to produce forgiveness of sins (see note 4 at Mt 3:11 and note 9 at Mr 16:16).

Notes are not inspired. And if those notes say that it wasn't to produce forgiveness of sins, then they are dead wrong:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Since Acts 8 stated that ONLYL those who had been baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit had received the Holy Spirit, and Acts 19 showed that beleif alone DID NOT DO THIS, then the reference is to Baptism, not belief.

Even John the Baptist preached baptism for the remission of sins:

Mark 1:4 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

So please stop this nonsense about baptism not being related to the remission of sins. This is the point of baptism. IT IS for the remission of sins and to baptize us into the Body of Christ. What on earth did you think it was for????

Why do you preach dead works. I don't do dead works. I only do works that Christ gave to be effecatious for me. Dead works that are only done for show???? That is so OT. Leave it there.

If you don't believe that water baptism does something, then why bother? Do you honestly believe that Jesus commanded His Apostles to baptize all nations for show? Most were done in secret to avoid execution.

This water could be speaking of the Word of God (Joh 15:3, Eph 5:26, Jas 1:18, and 1Pe 1:23)

No. The constant use of water in the Bible as a symble for the Holy Spirit is WHY we use it for baptism.

Don't forget this one:

John 7:38 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Verse 4 make it very clear Jesus is not talking about anything concerning this world five senses we live by, and water you can feel and see, and hear so that is out of the picture!

Verse 4 was not speaking about the process of getting born again or baptism (the two are the same thing, but you keep separating them). This is all about living as Christians IN Christ. Jesus was both physical and spiritual. And so are we in the Body of Christ. My flesh and blood hand is a member of the Body of Christ. My foot is also. So is my heart. We all have different roles within the Body of Christ, but we carry out those roles in the FLESH as well as the spirit - feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. Even healing the sick and speaking in tongues - try doing either without lifting a hand or moving your lips or tongue.

You also didn't answer me directly , so is every where mention in the bible the word "baptism" meaning a water baptism regardless of the context is what is symbolic, because there is only one baptism as you interpretate in the natural?

I did answer, but clearly you didn't understand. There are references that are purely symbolic:

Matthew 20:21-23 21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

This is not a reference to Christian baptism, but another kind. This does not involve water but blood.

But Christian baptism always refers to water baptism. If it did not, they would have to specify which was meant. You are reading various passages through the lens of your modern, man-made tradition. You read baptism and insert whatever view of baptism you think it ought to be. But first century Jews and Christians did not have your newly invented tradition to go by. All they knew was that if a person gets baptized, they get wet.

After you answer this then we can continure with verse 4!

one love

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Verse 4 of what? Are we still on Romans 5?

Personally, I think we still need to go over baptism, because if you are going to swap out different kinds of baptisms based on your tradition, then this will get awfully confusing. Especially if you are going to start reading "spirit baptism" into places that have nothing to do with baptism/rebirth.

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Ephesians states that there is ONE Baptism. Do not bother me with separate types of baptisms. For a Christian, no other kind matters.

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Originally posted by bwellmysoul

Evangelist,

Would you agree or disagree with this statement:

Christ instituted a sacramental Apostolic Church?

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You keep putting the cart before the horse when trying to think the natural water is what forgives our sins, and the ritual of the baptism ceromony is what saved us and made us righteous.

No I don't. The water is the symbol of what actually does happen. But you still need to symbol to fully understand and accept the reality.

I gave you two verses that state clearly that BAPTISM is for the remission of sins. And one of those verses even included John the Baptist's baptism with water only. So don't go giving me any new age nonsense about water not being required.

The water itself does not do anything, but the faith that goes into this act along with the Holy Spirit that flows through this act does EVERYTHING. Until you get that straight, you won't understand.

There is ONE Baptism for Christians. ONE only. No separated types of baptisms.

This is why I went back to Romans 5 and another main point of our forgiveness of all our sins began and ended alone in the blood of Jesus not water!

Of course the Blood of Christ, which is also represented by water:

John 19:34 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

If you were covered in red blood when you were baptized you might have a point. But if the red blood wasn't there, then you were NOT baptised in Christ's blood unless you accept the symbol that HE gave us. That water of baptism is the Blood of the Lamb that washes away our sins. The water of Baptism is also the Holy Spirit that comes to dwell in us. The water of Baptism is so tightly tied with God and all that He has done that only a blind fool could separate it.

Christ did not shed spiritual blood on the Cross. He gave His own actual blood upon the cross. That sacrifice empowers the sacraments that followed along with the Holy Spirit.

The water is symbolic of the main source which is the blood of Jesus, and that can only be accepted spiritually which you are trying to make the natuarl carnal parts we do in a water baptism the seed and the source and that is a lie FAITH!

No, you are trying very hard to not understand me. I have said many times that water is the symbol of the blood of the lamb. You are the one who rejects the symbol, in the mistaken belief that you can have the reality that the symbol represents by bypassing the symbol that Christ gave us. Not so.

Your philosophy is making the blood of Jesus and the cross of no effect!

Hardly. I accept all that Christ taught and that is what makes the Cross so very effective. You are the one seeking loopholes and excuses.

But we need to get one thibg straight and that is first to compare water baptism VS the blood of Jesus and then we can continue ok?
I mean continue in romans 6, verse 4!

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Originally posted by bwellmysoul


In Sacred Scripture, do you think that the Apostles taught various interpretations of His Gospel and that they practiced various beliefs about the Sacraments in the established Churches?

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So we are bypassing Romans 5? Fair enough. Romans 6:4

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

One of the reasons that so many Protestants reject the Catholic practice of baptism by pouring and demand baptism solely by total submersion is because of this verse. The majority of Protestants hold that this verse is a reference to water baptism and that only submersion is truly symbolic of burial.

Since this is not even in question for the vast majority of Non-Catholic Christians and even you have supported total submersion as being the only acceptable form of baptism based on this verse, I assume that we both agree that this is speaking of water baptism and that when we rise out of the water of the baptismal font or pool we have risen with Christ as a new man/person in Christ.

Are we in agreement on this verse? If so, I am eager to proceed to verse 5.

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In concert with His redemptive act, Jesus did three things that established the framework of His Church.

First, He chose humans to carry out His work. He appointed Peter to be the visible head of the Church.

Jesus said to Peter, "You are Rock and on this rock I will build my Church." (Matthew 16: 18) Jesus said "build," as in to create a structure. Jesus built His structure on specifically chosen human beings Peter and the apostles.

Second, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles the power and authority to carry out His work.

"Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven."(Matthew 16:19; 18:18)

"Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained."(John 20:23)

Third, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles commands as to what that work should be. At the last supper, He commanded, "Do this in memory of Me." (Luke 22:19) He commanded them to "Make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19), and to "Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15)

The early Church was structured in a hierarchical manner as it is today. We see in Acts, chapter 15 how the apostles and the elders came together under the leadership of St. Peter to decide the question of what was required of Gentiles.

We also see how St. Peter was regarded as the head of the Church when St. Paul, "Went up to Jerusalem to confer with Kephas [Peter] and remained with him fifteen days." (Galatians 1:18)

There is no Scriptural evidence of independent local churches.

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb1.htm

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Ephesians states that there is ONE Baptism. Do not bother me with separate types of baptisms. For a Christian, no other kind matters.

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I gzess that is why you don't want to deal with the different kind of baptism because you night have to deal with the blood baptsm of Jesus which will debunk your philosophy and catholic doctrine at large!

one love

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Originally posted by evangelist

quote faith:

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So we are bypassing Romans 5? Fair enough. Romans 6:4

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

One of the reasons that so many Protestants reject the Catholic practice of baptism by pouring and demand baptism solely by total submersion is because of this verse. The majority of Protestants hold that this verse is a reference to water baptism and that only submersion is truly symbolic of burial.

Since this is not even in question for the vast majority of Non-Catholic Christians and even you have supported total submersion as being the only acceptable form of baptism based on this verse, I assume that we both agree that this is speaking of water baptism and that when we rise out of the water of the baptismal font or pool we have risen with Christ as a new man/person in Christ.

Are we in agreement on this verse? If so, I am eager to proceed to verse 5.

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Yes , I do agree a real symbolical baptisn should be done like Jesus showed us to do and be an example of full submersion in water.
But this vers is not talking about a water baptism or a John the baptist water baptism, it is alone in the baptism spiritually in Christ Jesus, or in His blood recieved by belief and faith with your heart!

John the Baptist did baptize by water alone, so no one received the Holy Spirit and were not entered in to the body of Christ; however, what I was talking about is NOT the baptism of John, but the Baptism of Christ which is done with water AND spirit.

Acts 19 proves that belief and faith with all one's heart does not bring down the Holy Spirit, this only happens when one is baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit as taught by Jesus in Matthew 28:19, and confirmed in Acts 8:16 and proven again in Acts 19:1-7. This is the ONE Baptism. There is no other.

Believing is not baptism. Faith is not baptism. Baptism is our response to God, what WE DO. Faith is God's gift to us, Baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. 1 Peter 3:21. And in return, we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and entrance into Christ's Covenant and His Body.

Pretending that we have imaginary baptism where we believe we are baptized, and then also do a show of baptism by getting wet, and then getting hands laid on us for third baptism to get the Holy Spirit is all just modern mumbo jumbe and DEAD WORKS. If it isn't NECESSARY, then it is dead and useless. Why do you preach dead works?

Paul said there is ONE baptism. Jesus taught and commanded water baptism in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The Apostles baptized with water. Why do you find this to be such a difficult concept? Under the OT, they did things that were simple acts of obedience that did not do anything permamently - what Christ established does accomplish everything He said. Why do you doubt?

We MUST be born of WATER and spirit. The water is the symbol, but both are required.

Ro 6:4: This verse states our death with Christ (see note 7 at Ro 6:6) as an accomplished fact and our resurrection with Christ as what should be the result of that death. That might lead some to speculate that our death with Christ to sin has already been accomplished, while our resurrection with Him in context, spiritual resurrection has yet to be accomplished. Yet comparison with other scripture will reveal that is not so.

Well, at least we agree on that score. In Baptism we are risen with Christ to new life. Some just don't know it yet. Baptism did everything perfectly - our past sins are washed away (see Romans 3:25) and we are made perfect at that moment.

Eph 2:5-6 states our spiritual resurrection with Christ as an accomplished fact that happens at salvation. Col 2:12-13 makes the same claim. In Col 3:1, Paul used the reasoning that if we are risen with Christ, then we should seek those things that are above. Just as surely as all Christians are to seek heavenly things, likewise, all Christians have been raised with Christ.

Amen.

Our spirits died to sin and are already resurrected with Christ unto newness of life. These things are already realities in our new spirits. Yet to see these facts become realities in our physical lives,

So close. No where in the Bible does it say that your new spirit has acheived anything that your new body has not. When we are born again, we are entirely born again. No part is further along that the rest - if your born again body is not behaving as it ought to, then your spirit and mind still need a bit more renewing.

we have to first know what happened to us in our spirits at salvation and then believe this good news. To the degree that we think, believe, and act like who we are in our spirits, to that degree we will experience the life of Christ in our flesh sooner or latter which is an on going process.

one love

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Ephesians states that there is ONE Baptism. Do not bother me with separate types of baptisms. For a Christian, no other kind matters.

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I gzess that is why you don't want to deal with the different kind of baptism because you night have to deal with the blood baptsm of Jesus which will debunk your philosophy and catholic doctrine at large!

one love

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According to the Bible, the other kinds of baptism are John the Baptist's baptism which Christians no longer do. And the Mikvey for ritual cleansing performed by the Jews as often as necessary - also not done by Christians.

Only Martyrs are baptized by blood, so unless you are killed for your faith, you don't have that option.

Jesus died for us and so was Himself baptized by blood. But for us to benefit from that blood, we need to be baptized by Christian baptism. This is done by water and spirit during the traditional Christian water baptism.

Paul said that there is ONE Baptism. That is all there is.

John the Baptist indicated that where he baptized by water alone, Jesus would baptize with the Spirit - this Jesus does when we are baptized with water - there is NO SEPARATE BAPTISM.

If Christians had to be baptized more than once by more than one means - Paul would have mentioned this. He never does. Jesus would have mentioned this, HE never did. The only ones who have said this were born in the 20th century, many times removed from the Apostolic age.

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Almost. We were saved at Baptism, and are being saved as we walk with Christ, and we will be saved as we seek to be reconciled to Him should we stumble.

Quote Evangelist:
with your explanation you can never know when you are saved, and second you are making a statement only at your baptism you are perfect until the next time you stumble, so for someone whó just got water baptized according to you , would be the best thing or a great awesome favor to that new convert is to kill them as soon as they come out the water so they can be a perfect saved dead person, and don't have to have the yoke and stress of hoping and wishing that they might get reconciled to Christ!
Ro:5:8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Ro:5:9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Ro:5:10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Note this gospel truth above is saying it is nothing we do , or seek, try, earn, or a performance of any kind good or bad but it is alone imputted or given to us as a free gift by Jesus pefect sinless life!

Ro:5:11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Note also paul is saying there no need for a seeking or seek , or try to get , niether any process we have to do or wait or get in the by and bye!


The key is to know who we are in Christ and live accordingly.

Quote Evangelist:
YES! BINGO AMEN FAITH!
It is like us being a police man and have all the authority and rights as a police which you are , and should act like who you are a police man and not a coward and a fool, and afraid.
But even if you have those thing, and you are still a officail police man, by law, just your mind should learn to live and act as a police man.
I can say the same analogy as a soldier in the army, and as soon as you swear in to be in the army you are a soldier at that moment!
But if you are sent to war and you don't live and do what you are trained to do , you will died a soldier even sooner than you think, and died not as a non soldier.
The dumm thing about a stupid or a soildier not living like he should might die without honor to his country and die as a non ranked soldier!
This is a good example why you need to stop claiming your non faith and lack of knowledge of being stil a sinner!



So often we are told to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. You seem to think that we can do both at the same time. We cannot. We walk after the spirit OR the flesh with the whole of our being - body, mind and spirit.

Those who walk after the flesh seek to fullfill the lusts of the flesh. Those who walk after the spirit deny the lusts of the flesh. This means that they actually refrain from committing sins with their body.

We are told constantly in the Bible to avoid sin and seek after Christ. Jesus is the Way - follow HIM, not the world. Jesus is the Truth, listen to HIM, not the world. Jesus is the Life, abide in Him and refuse to be caught up in the world.

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