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I would like to know if anyone knows, where Mary's body was and where it is now?When i was a child i remember my mom told me that when she died a rose was found where they put her body. Now i realy want to know if that has been changed or if it is still the same and how more... Freedom!
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quote:
Originally posted by lacy-1
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
If we simply pray to the Father in Jesus name (which we often do), then we have no reason to ask anyone to pray for us and should never ask. Instead, we should just tell anyone who asks for our prayers to do it themselves.
This is one of the glaring faults of much of Protestantism, especially the one's that emphasize the Me and Jesus individualism. They have a dim understanding of what it means to be the covenental family of God, the Body of Christ, the Church. The Body of Christ seems to be reduced to a weak metaphor. Yet at the same time, I know they pray for each other just as much as anyone else.
Intercessory prayer is all over the bible. We are all to be co-mediators with Christ and it is based on the sole mediatorship of Jesus. We are all members of the common priesthood. What is a priest, but a bridge between God and man.
And yes we request the intercession of those already in the presence of God because they are part of the one body of Christ. Death doesn't separate us unless we exist in flesh only.
We also see in Revelation that the elders and angels have the prayers of the saints in their possession (Rev 5, 8) and they offer them up to the throne of God in the form of incense.
Mary happens to be the first and model Christian whose perfect 'yes' to God brought forth the Savior of the World.
 You just don't get it do you? The diffence is You pray FOR someone, not TO someone, the difference is you pray TO MARY and not FOR MARY. And why would you pray FOR MARY if she was perfect?
When I pray For you, I do not worship You. If I prayed To you, I would be worshiping you! Now do you get it? lacy-1
So Lacy, you never ask other people to pray for you? That is what we ask of Mary, but I would have assumed you knew that, that is the essence of intercession. I don't know any Catholic who prays to Mary as one prays to God or as a form of worship. It sounds like you consider submitting prayer requests to another person to be some form of worship of that person.
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quote:
Originally posted by lacy-1
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
If we simply pray to the Father in Jesus name (which we often do), then we have no reason to ask anyone to pray for us and should never ask. Instead, we should just tell anyone who asks for our prayers to do it themselves.
This is one of the glaring faults of much of Protestantism, especially the one's that emphasize the Me and Jesus individualism. They have a dim understanding of what it means to be the covenental family of God, the Body of Christ, the Church. The Body of Christ seems to be reduced to a weak metaphor. Yet at the same time, I know they pray for each other just as much as anyone else.
Intercessory prayer is all over the bible. We are all to be co-mediators with Christ and it is based on the sole mediatorship of Jesus. We are all members of the common priesthood. What is a priest, but a bridge between God and man.
And yes we request the intercession of those already in the presence of God because they are part of the one body of Christ. Death doesn't separate us unless we exist in flesh only.
We also see in Revelation that the elders and angels have the prayers of the saints in their possession (Rev 5, 8) and they offer them up to the throne of God in the form of incense.
Mary happens to be the first and model Christian whose perfect 'yes' to God brought forth the Savior of the World.
You just don't get it do you? The diffence is You pray FOR someone, not TO someone, the difference is you pray TO MARY and not FOR MARY. And why would you pray FOR MARY if she was perfect?
When I pray For you, I do not worship You. If I prayed To you, I would be worshiping you! Now do you get it? lacy-1
So Lacy, you never ask other people to pray for you? That is what we ask of Mary, but I would have assumed you knew that, that is the essence of intercession. I don't know any Catholic who prays to Mary as one prays to God or as a form of worship. It sounds like you consider submitting prayer requests to another person to be some form of worship of that person.
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 Holy Mary mother of God (pray)for us sinners, your right you are asking her to pray for us sinners, you are praying for her to pray for us sinners, Jesus said he was the ONLY mediator between man and God, and to ask anything in his name. he didn't even want us tom pray to him, he said all the praise and honor and glory goes to the Father in heaven. Ask anything in my name and it shall be granted to you but to pray to the Father. He realy didn't give us any other prayer but i realy don't see anything wrong with it either, because you are asking her for help, to pray intersessory prayer for you. yes i do see what you are saying Yes i have said the rosery with others at the abortion mill and i just wanted to be sure it was ok to do, I recite Psalms and those belong to David but he only prays to God, and yes i do ask the living to pray for me all the time, and i pray for others also. Pray ye one for another. But i did not know about the dead, that's where it get's sketchy for me. Thank you lacy-1
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The dead are alive in Christ.
"Look on the bright side, if this is the best they've got around here, in six months we'll be running this planet." (Planet of the Apes)
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Lacy-1, I would also point out that while the "Our Father" was indeed a special prayer given to us by Our Lord, He never said it was the only prayer we could say. The scriptures are filled with prayers.
Luke 1:46-55 "46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
50And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
51He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
53He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
54He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
55As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever."
This is called the Canticle of Mary, also known as The Magnificat. If you have any Catholic prayer book with more than a few pages in it, it will have The Magnificat in it. Chances are many of the hymn books in any Catholic Church you attend may also have this prayer in them.
Canticles are like the Psalms, they are meant to be sung but they can also be prayed. There are other Canticles in the Christian Bible, and not just in the New Testament.
The following is the Canticle of Zacharias, also known as "Benedictus".
Luke 1:68-79 " 68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace."
If you read them you should be able to see that they were not intended to serve as common conversation. These are not conventional dialogue.
Pax et Bonum,
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Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Originally posted by thunderson
jdubya, one of the glaring faults of protestants?...we definitely pray and pray intensely for each other, but we dont do it by talking to saints or mary...again, you cant back that up in scripture..
I did mention that Protestants pray as much for others as we do. My main point was that Protestants don't see the Body of Christ in the same way as we do. There is only one body of Christ and God is not the God of the dead, but of the living(Mat 22:32). For some reason, it is as though you see the physically dead as members of a separate body of of Christ, no longer united to believers on earth and no longer with a role to play in the body.
We don't hold conversations with Mary and the saints, we ask for their prayers to join with ours to the Father.
There are several scriptures that tell us that those in heaven have our prayers in their possession:
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
What are the elders doing with our prayers? Why didn't they go directly to God? Likewise:
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;
4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
Thus we also have angels who have the prayers of the saints in their possession.
Hbr 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
Hbr 12:23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
I guess this could just be flowery speech, but it sounds like we are partakers of heaven which includes the righteous dead.
There are also several scriptures that show that those in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth (Mat 18:10, Luk 15:6-10, Heb 12:1)
We also have the example of Jesus speaking to the "dead" Moses and Elijah in the transfiguration. Jesus was sinless under the law, thus this was not a sin.
I could write a long paper on this, but it would be better for me to point you to a comprehensive article which I could then discuss with you on its merits.
quote:
Originally posted by thunderson
the first christians came out of the upper room with absolutely no membership to any earthly church, but a membership in the Body of Christ sealed by the Holy Spirit of God...thats true membership!!
If you want to discuss the nature of the church in a separate thread, I would be glad to do so. For you to point out that they were not members of an earthly church at this point seems more like an a priori doctrine of yours. Indeed, the idea of a spiritual only church is not biblical and unheard of until its invention after the reformation as a means to justify splitting up the church.
quote:
Originally posted by thunderson
The chosen among that group went on to write as they were lead by the Holy Spirit and not one of them made mention of praying to saints or Mary in any way, shape, or fashion...admit it, you are defending a practice that you cannot in any way justify from the Word of God.
We could also discuss “scripture alone” which has less scriptural support than asking the intercession of saints. This is another issue that was invented that went hand in hand with the creation of the spiritual-only church in an attempt to usurp the authority that was given to the church by Jesus. The fruits are evident today, with more theologies than can be counted among ‘bible’ Christians and pseudo-Christians who also claim the bible as their sole rule of faith. Even Martin Luther saw these fruits shortly after the reformation saying that there were as many beliefs as there were heads.
The thing is that we don’t only have to rely on scripture alone, those are Protestant claims.
quote:
Originally posted by thunderson
But if the Catholic church tells you the world is flat, you will believe it because your belief is in the authority of the church...when any church says we are the only true door to Christ, thats the cult alert...you are foolish if you believe Christ needs the catholic church to save anyone!
Maybe you don’t know, but the majority of Catholic members on this forum were either raised as Protestants or left Catholicism for Evangelicalism until reverting. I am in the latter category and spent over 15 years in the ‘Evangelical’ ranks and have no regrets.
There were issues that I had difficulty with before returning, but all of the major issues like authority, justification/salvation, sacraments and others were so overwhelming, that I could take the rest on faith until I studied and prayed over them more deeply.
A thorough study of history showed me that either the church went totally apostate after the apostles died, or the church has always been Catholic and still practices the central truths of the faith the same way that they did in the first century onward.
Jesus didn’t need a church, he could have snapped His fingers and saved us all and brought us all into heaven immediately if He wanted to. The fact remains that He gave us the church (which is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic) as the vehicle to transmit His Gospel to the world. The church that He built on Peter and the apostles that has the power to bind and loose, which is the pillar and ground of the truth, which the gates of hell would not prevail against. The same church that faithfully wrote, collected, preserved and canonized the bible.
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Who wrote the Bible?
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Contents [hide]
1 What is the Bible?
2 Did "God write the bible?"
3 New Testament
3.1 New Testament manuscripts
3.2 Transmission
3.3 Manuscript construction
4 References
[edit] What is the Bible?
The Bible is one of twenty-seven books for which divine origin is claimed. Christians deny the divinity of all Bibles but their own. We deny the divinity of only one more than they do.
Out of 250 Jewish-Christian writings, sixty-six have arbitrarily been declared canonical by Protestants. The rejected books are of the same general character as those now published together as the "Holy Bible." Circumstances rather than merit determined selection.
For 150 years the Christian Bible consisted of the sacred books of the Jews. The New Testament was not formed until the latter half of the second century when Irenaeus selected twenty books from among forty or more gospels, nearly as many acts of apostles, a score of revelations and a hundred epistles. Why were these particular books chosen? Why four gospels instead of one? Irenaeus: "There are four quarters of the earth in which we live and four universal winds." The gospels were unknown to Peter, Paul, and the early church fathers. They were forged later.
The Bible did not assume anything like its present form until the fourth century. The Roman Catholic, Greek Catholic, and Protestant canons were not adopted until modern times. The Bible was recognized as a collection of independent writings. The Council of Trent (1563) determined the Roman Catholic, Protestants denounce the Catholic Bible as a "popish imposture." The Greek Catholics at the Council of Jerusalem in 1672 finally accepted the book of Revelation. Their Bible contains several books not in the Roman canon. The Westminster Assembly in 1647 approved the list of sixty-six books composing the authorized version, the one most used in America. Our Bible, therefore, is less than 300 years old.
[edit] Did "God write the bible?"
No, the Bible was not written by "God." It was written by man. Or to be more specific, many men, probably thousands of different people, who over the ages created, contributed, translated, edited and embellished various writings over hundreds of years. After this, various church organizations "canonized" selected writings and created different versions of the Bible. Even today, people disagree over various translations of the books, and the new testament we recognize today was not assembled until the 4th century, 300+ years after Jesus' time!
The bottom line is that for the most part, nobody really knows who wrote the Bible. Many of the books' authors to this day remain completely anonymous. But scholars all agree there were numerous authors of both the old and new testament.
Here is information on the formation of the new testament: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html
We want to go over this and paraphrase in conversational English, the source of the modern day bible.
[edit] New Testament
[edit] New Testament manuscripts
The New Testament has been preserved in more manuscripts than any other ancient work, having over 5,400 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Gothic, Ethiopic, Coptic and Armenian. The dates of these manuscripts range from the 2nd century up to the invention of the printing press in the 15th century. The vast majority of these manuscripts date after the 10th century.
When one compares one manuscript to another, with the exception of the smallest fragments, no two copies agree completely in their wording. There has been an estimate of between 200,000 and 300,000 variations among all the manuscripts, which is more variations than words in the New Testament. The vast majority of these variations are errors made by scribes, and easily identified as such: an omitted word, a duplicate line, a misspelling, a rearrangement of words. Some variations involve apparently intentional changes, which can make it more difficult for scholars to determine whether they were corrections from better exemplars, harmonizations or ideologically motivated.[1] Paleography is the study of ancient writing, and textual criticism is the study of manuscripts in order to reconstruct a probable original text.
[edit] Transmission
The New Testament books appear to have been completed within the 1st century. However, the original manuscripts of the New Testament books do not survive today. The autographs were lost or destroyed a long time ago. What survives are copies of the original. Generally speaking, these copies were made centuries after the originals from other copies rather than from the autograph. The earliest manuscript of a New Testament text is a business card sized fragment from the Gospel of John, Rylands Library Papyrus P52, which dates to the first half of the 2nd century. The first complete copies of single New Testament books appear around 200, and the earliest complete copy of the New Testament dates to the 4th century.[2]
The task of copying manuscripts was generally taken on by scribes, trained professionals in the art of writing and bookmaking. Some manuscripts also had proofreaders, and scholars closely examining a text can make out the original and corrections found in certain manuscripts. In the 6th century, a special room devoted to the practice of manuscript writing and illumination called the scriptorium started to emerge, typically inside medieval European monasteries. Sometimes a group of scribes would copy along as one individual read from the text.[3]
[edit] Manuscript construction
An important issue with manuscripts is preservation. The earliest New Testament manuscripts were written on papyrus, a plant that grew abundantly in the Egyptian Nile Delta. This tradition continued on to as late as the 8th century.[4] Papyrus becomes brittle and deteriorates with age. The dry climate of Egypt allowed for some papyrus manuscripts to be partially preserved, but, with the exception of P77, no New Testament papyrus manuscript is complete, with many consisting only of a single fragmented page.[5] However, beginning in the 4th century, parchment (also called vellum) began to be the common medium used for New Testament manuscripts.[6] It wasn't until the 12th century that paper, which was invented in 1st century China, began to gain popularity in biblical manuscripts.[7]
Out of the 476 non-Christian manuscripts dated to the 2nd century, 97% of the manuscripts are in the form of scrolls; however, the 8 Christian manuscripts are codices. In fact, the vast majority of New Testament manuscripts are codices. The adaptation of the codex form in non-Christian text did not become dominant until the 4th and 5th centuries, demonstrating that the Christians had an early preference to the codex when compared to non-Christian manuscripts. The considerable lengths of the groupings of New Testament books (such as the Pauline epistles) did not suit the limited space available on a single scroll, where a codex could be expanded to hundreds of pages.
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Clever, but not entirely accurate. I have read that the Gospels were forged, but if that were so, then why to do we have record of them being written earlier?
Papias makes reference to the Gospels and he lived during the time of the Apostles, so how could the Apostles not have known about the writings attributed to them. Irenaeus confirms what Papias knew, and affirms that Papias disciple of the Apostle John and a friend of Polycarp.
Irenaeus On Papias, and Papias
Irenaeus:
quote:
Now testimony is borne to these things in writing by Papias, an ancient man, who was a hearer of John, and a friend of Polycarp, in the fourth of his books; for five books were composed by him.
Papias:
quote:
And the presbyter said this. Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord's sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took special care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements.
quote:
Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could.
Please note that all we have from Papias are fragments, and quotes from others about what he wrote.
Read through Polycarp's writings and you will find that he quotes the New Testament frequently, and indicates in many places that they are quotes or sayings that Christians know, and this means that these are not just providing fodder for future forgers.
From what I have read, nearly the entire Bible (including the New Testament) can be recreated from the quotes given by the Early Church Fathers. That would be hard to do if the scriptures were late in being produced. There were no printing presses to whip these off to anyone who wanted a copy.
So too with Ignatius, who quotes the scriptures many times, and here quotes them while identifying them as scripture:
quote:
For says the Scripture, “Many bodies of the saints that slept arose,” [Matt. xxvii. 52]. their graves being opened. He descended, indeed, into Hades alone, but He arose accompanied by a multitude; and rent asunder that means of separation which had existed from the beginning of the world, and cast down its partition-wall. He also rose again in three days, the Father raising Him up; and after spending forty days with the apostles, He was received up to the Father, and “sat down at His right hand, expecting till His enemies are placed under His feet.” [Heb. x. 12, 13]. On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost; and before sunset He was buried. During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathea had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” [Matt. xii. 40]. The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection.
Ignatius is quoting the Gospel of Matthew and calling it scripture (scripture means that it is written and not oral). Ignatius died 107 AD, was born before Christ died on the Cross. He lived in the Apostolic Age.
Ignatius was a student of the Apostles, he studied under Saint John the Apostle with Polycarp. So if anyone is a good witness as to whether any of the Gospel accounts were written after the Apostles had died, Ignatius would have known.
Ignatius is quoting Matthew and identifies it as scripture. Ignatius also quotes from Paul's letter to the Ephesians and identifies Paul as the author of that earlier epistle in his own letter to the Ephesians. He quotes Paul a lot.
Ignatius also quotes John as scripture:
quote:
For says [the Scripture], “If ye were of this world, the world would love its own; but now ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of it: continue in fellowship with me.” [John xv. 19.]
Ignatius also quotes Luke. I do not know if he specifically quotes Mark or not, but with three of the four gospels accounted for by someone who was a student of the Apostle John and who died before some of the "suggested" later dates of composition (by others, I have seen similar sites to this one), I think it is safe to say that there are foul men afoot seeking to undermine the faith by lies and deception - either that or they are just plain lazy and ignorant and have not bothered to check their sources.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 11/04/2009 16:52:08
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P.S. Thanks for raising the site in any case. The best thing about freedom of speech is the opportunity to correct silly notions.
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Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Clever, but not entirely accurate. I have read that the Gospels were forged, but if that were so, then why to we have record of them being written earlier?
Papias makes reference to the Gospels and he lived during the time of the Apostles, so how could the Apostles not have known about the writings attributed to them. Irenaeus confirms what Papias knew, and affirms that Papias disciple of the Apostle John and a friend of Polycarp.
Irenaeus On Papias, and Papias
Irenaeus:
quote:
Now testimony is borne to these things in writing by Papias, an ancient man, who was a hearer of John, and a friend of Polycarp, in the fourth of his books; for five books were composed by him.
Papias:
quote:
And the presbyter said this. Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord's sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took special care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements.
quote:
Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could.
Please note that all we have from Papias are fragments, and quotes from others about what he wrote.
Read through Polycarp's writings and you will find that he quotes the New Testament frequently, and indicates in many places that they are quotes or sayings that Christians know, and this means that these are not just providing fodder for future forgers.
From what I have read, nearly the entire Bible (including the New Testament) can be recreated from the quotes given by the Early Church Fathers. That would be hard to do if the scriptures were late in being produced. There were no printing presses to whip these off to anyone who wanted a copy.
So too with Ignatius, who quotes the scriptures many times, and "http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.iv.ix.html]here[/url] quotes them while identifying them as scripture:
quote:
For says the Scripture, �Many bodies of the saints that slept arose,� [Matt. xxvii. 52]. their graves being opened. He descended, indeed, into Hades alone, but He arose accompanied by a multitude; and rent asunder that means of separation which had existed from the beginning of the world, and cast down its partition-wall. He also rose again in three days, the Father raising Him up; and after spending forty days with the apostles, He was received up to the Father, and �sat down at His right hand, expecting till His enemies are placed under His feet.� [Heb. x. 12, 13]. On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost; and before sunset He was buried. During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathea had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord�s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, �As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale�s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.� [Matt. xii. 40]. The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord�s Day contains the resurrection.
Ignatius is quoting the Gospel of Matthew and calling it scripture (scripture means that it is written and not oral). Ignatius died 107 AD, was born before Christ died on the Cross. He lived in the Apostolic Age.
Ignatius was a student of the Apostles, he studied under Saint John the Apostle with Polycarp. So if anyone is a good witness as to whether any of the Gospel accounts were written after the Apostles had died, Ignatius would have known.
Ignatius is quoting Matthew and identifies it as scripture. Ignatius also quotes from Paul's letter to the Ephesians and identifies Paul as the author of that earlier epistle in his own letter to the Ephesians. He quotes Paul a lot.
Ignatius also quotes John as scripture:
quote:
For says [the Scripture], �If ye were of this world, the world would love its own; but now ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of it: continue in fellowship with me.� [John xv. 19.]
Ignatius also quotes Luke. I do not know if he specifically quotes Mark or not, but with three of the four gospels accounted for by someone who was a student of the Apostle John and who died before some of the "suggested" later dates of composition (by others, I have seen similar sites to this one), I think it is safe to say that there are foul men afoot seeking to undermine the faith by lies and deception - either that or they are just plain lazy and ignorant and have not bothered to check their sources.
The priest at my church siad that not all the bible was written by the people that it say's it is written by. He said John was added to etc. Ask a priest they should know, I am telling you what he said to me. lacy-1
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quote:
Originally posted by Astralis
The dead are alive in Christ.
Astralis, why did Jesus say"The dead know nothing?" Rememner he siad let the dead burry the dead and pick up your cross and follow me. lacy-1
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in that very same chapter of Luke, chapter 9 i believe, Jesus is seen with both Moses and Elijah
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
P.S. Thanks for raising the site in any case. The best thing about freedom of speech is the opportunity to correct silly notions.
 How true!
Fascinating facts about the invention of the
Printing Press by Johannes Gutenberg in 1440. .
PRINTING PRESS
AT A GLANCE:
In 1440, German inventor Johannes Gutenberg invented a printing press process that, with refinements and increased mechanization, remained the principal means of printing until the late 20th century. The inventor's method of printing from movable type, including the use of metal molds and alloys, a special press, and oil-based inks, allowed for the first time the mass production of printed books. THE STORY
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Invention: printing press
Function: noun / print·ing press
Definition: A machine that transfers lettering or images by contact with various forms of inked surface onto paper or similar material fed into it in various ways The device is used for printing many copies of a text on paper.
Inventor: Johannes Gutenberg (aka Johann Gutenberg)
Criteria; First practical. Modern prototype. Entrepreneur.
Birth: c1400 in Mainz, Germany
Death: February 3, 1468 in Mainz, Germany
Nationality: German
Milestones:
888 The Diamond Sutra, a Buddhist scripture, was the first dated example of block printing.
1041 Bi Sheng in China invented movable clay type
1423 Europeans use xylography (art of engraving on wood, block printing) to produce books.
1430 Gutenberg moved from his native town of Mainz to Strasburg
1436 Gutenberg begins work on his printing press.
1437 Gutenberg was sued for "breach of promise of marriage" by a young lady of Strasburg
1440 Gutenberg completed his wooden press which used movable metal type.
1440 Laurens Janszoon Koster (Coster) is credited, by some, with inventing movable metal type
1444 Gutenberg returns to Mainz and sets up a printing shop
1446 Gutenberg prints the "Poem of the Last Judgment"
1448 Gutenberg prints the "Calendar for 1448"
1450 Gutenberg' formed a partnership with the wealthy Johann Fust
1450 Gutenberg begins work on a Bible, the first is 40 lines per page.
1452 Gutenberg begins printing the 42-line Bible in two volumes.
1454 Gutenberg prints indulgences (notes sold to Christians by the Pope, pardoning their sins)
1455 First block-printed Bible, the Biblia Pauperum, published in Germany.
1455 Gutenberg completed work on what is estimated to be 200 copies of the Bible
1455 Gutenberg was effectively bankrupt. Investor Johann Faust gains control of print business
1457 First known color printing, a Psalter (a collection of Psalms for devotional use) by Faust.
1460 Gutenberg reestablished himself in the printing business with the aid of Conrad Humery
1461 Albrecht Pfister printed the first illustrated book Edelstein which featured a number of woodcuts.
1465 Gutenberg is appointed to the court of Archbishop Adolf of Nassau
1476 Two hundred woodcuts were used in a edition of Aesop's Fables
1476 First use of copper engravings instead of woodcuts for illustration
1476 William Caxton sets up his printing press in Westminster, England.
1499 Printing had become established in more than 2500 cities around Europe.
1499 An estimated 15 million books have been press printed, representing thirty thousand book titles
CAPs: Johannes Gutenberg, Johann Gutenberg, Bi Sheng, Laurens Janszoon Koster, Johann Faust, Peter Schoffer, Albrecht Pfister, Conrad Humery, Archbishop Adolf of Nassau, William Caxton, Gutenberg Bible, 42-line Bible, Mazarin Bible, Diamond Sutra, Poem of the Last Judgment, Calendar for 1448, Psalter, Aesop's Fables,
SIPs: printing press, movable type, xylography, metal type, indulgences, typography, letterpress printing, invention, history, inventor of, history of, who invented, invention of, fascinating facts.
The Story:
In the mid-15th century Johannes Gutenberg invented a mechanical way of making books. This was the first example of mass book production. Before the invention of printing, multiple copies of a manuscript had to be made by hand, a laborious task that could take many years. Later books were produced by and for the Church using the process of wood engraving. This required the craftsman to cut away the background, leaving the area to be printed raised. This process applied to both text and illustrations and was extremely time-consuming. When a page was complete, often comprising a number of blocks joined together, it would be inked and a sheet of paper was then pressed over it for an imprint. The susceptibility of wood to the elements gave such blocks a limited lifespan .
In the Far East, movable type and printing presses were known but did not replace printing from individually carved wooden blocks, from movable clay type, processes much more efficient than hand copying. The use of movable type in printing was invented in 1041 AD by Bi Sheng in China. Since there are thousands of Chinese characters, the benefit of the technique is not as obvious as in European languages.
In China, there were no texts similar to the Bible which could guarantee a printer return on the high capital investment of a printing press, and so the primary form of printing was wood block printing which was more suited for short runs of texts for which the return was uncertain
It is not clear whether Gutenberg knew of these existing techniques or invented them independently, though the former is considered unlikely because of the substantial differences in technique. Europeans use xylography (art of engraving on wood, block printing) to produce books and used by European textile makers to print patterns on fabric.
Gutenberg began experimenting with metal typography (letterpress printing) after he had moved from his native town of Mainz to Strassburg around 1430. Knowing that wood-block type involved a great deal of time and expense to reproduce, because it had to be hand carved, Gutenberg concluded that metal type could be reproduced much more quickly once a single mold had been fashioned.
When Johannes Gutenberg began building his press in 1436, he was unlikely to have realised that he was giving birth to an art form which would take center stage in the social and industrial revolutions which followed. He was German, his press was wooden, and the most important aspect of his invention was that it was the first form of printing to use movable type.
His initial efforts enabled him in 1440 to mass-produce indulgences -- printed slips of paper sold by the Catholic Church to remit temporal punishments in purgatory for sins committed in this life, for those wealthy enough to afford indulgences. Although Laurence Koster (Coster) of Haarlem, Netherlands also laid claim to the invention, scholars have generally accepted Gutenberg as the father of modern printing.
Gutenberg left Strasburg, presumably about 1444. He seems to have perfected at enormous expense his invention shortly afterwards, as is shown by the oldest specimens of printing that have come down to us, the "Poem of the Last Judgment", and the "Calendar for 1448"). The fact that Arnolt Gelthuss, a relative of Gutenberg, lent him money in the year 1448 at Mainz points to the same conclusion.
Legal documents indicate that Gutenberg probably began printing the Bible around 1450. It was in this year that Gutenberg entered into a partnership with Johann Fust who lent him money to finance the production of a Bible. Gutenberg certainly introduced efficient methods into book production, leading to a boom in the production of texts in Europe -- in large part, owing to the popularity of the Gutenberg Bibles, the first mass-produced work, starting in 1452. Even so, Gutenberg was a poor businessman, and made little money from his printing system.
The earliest dated specimens of printing by Gutenberg are papal indulgences (notes given to Christians by the Pope, pardoning their sins) issued in Mainz in 1454. In 1455, Gutenberg demonstrated the power of the printing press by selling copies of a two-volume Bible for a price that was the equivalent of approximately three years' wages for an average clerk, but it was significantly cheaper than a handwritten Bible that could take a single monk 20 years to transcribe.
In 1455, just as the project was nearing completion Johann Fust sued Gutenberg, taking possession of his printing equipment and the almost completed edition of the Bible. Fust subsequently entered into partnership with Peter Schoffer, who had been Gutenberg's assistant, and the project was finally completed in 1456 whereupon Fust undertook the task of marketing the bible. Fust first attempted to sell the Bibles as manuscripts but once potential purchasers observed the uniformity of the volumes, he had to reveal the means by which they were produced.
The mortgage covered the copious stock of type which had evidently been already prepared for the edition of the Psalter, which was printed by Fust and Schoffer in August, 1457. This included new type in two sizes, as well as the world-famous initial letters with their ingenious contrivance for two-color printing.
In 1457 Fust and Schoffer published a large Psalter, known as the Mainz Psalter, which featured printed red and blue intitials along with the black text. There is some debate about how these coloured letters were printed. They were either printed from two part metal blocks that were inked separately, re-assembled and then printed with the text, or they were stamped on after the main text was printed. Either way the process was time consuming and expensive so for several years it was more common for such decorative elements to be added by hand. The Mainz Psalter was also the first book to bear a printer's trademark and imprint, a printed date of publication and a colophon.
About 1457 Gutenberg also parted with his earliest-constructed founts of type, which he had made for the 40-line Bible,.Long before this Bible was printed the type had been used in an edition of the "Poem of the Last Judgment", and in the "Calendar for 1448", in editions of Donatus, and various other printed works. Most of this type fell into the possession of Albrecht Pfister in Bamberg.1460
The first person to print illustrated books was Albrecht Pfister. Around 1460 he published a book titled Der Ackermann von Bohmen (The Farmer from Bohmen). The only surviving copy of the first edition contains no illustrations but space has been left for them. A second edition printed in 1463 does include images. In 1461 Pfister printed an edition of Der Edelstein (a series of fables in German) which contained 101 woodcut illustrations. The woodcuts were in simple outline and were probably intended to be hand colored. (Most surviving copies have in fact been colored.)
Gutenberg next manufactured a new printer's outfit with the assistance he received from Conrad Humery, a distinguished and wealthy doctor of law, leader of the popular party, and chancellor of the council. This outfit comprised a set of small types fashioned after the round cursive handwriting used in books at that time and ornamented with an extraordinary number of ligatures. The type was used in the so-called "Catholicon" (grammar and alphabetic lexicon) in the year 1460, and also in several small books printed in Eltville down to the year 1472 by the brothers Echtermünze, relatives of Gutenberg. The Elector of Mainz, Archbishop Adolf of Nassau, presented him with a benefice (an ecclesiastical office in 1465) yielding an income and various privileges.
Gutenberg's invention spread rapidly after his death in 1468.. It met in general with a ready, and an enthusiastic reception in the centers of culture. The names of more than 1000 printers, mostly of German origin, have come down to us from the fifteenth century. In Italy we find well over 100 German printers, in France 30, in Spain 26. Many of the earliest printers outside of Germany had learned their art in Mainz, where they were known as "goldsmiths". Among those who were undeniably pupils of Gutenberg, and who probably were also assistants in the Gutenberg-Fust printing house were (besides Schoffer), Numeister, Keffer, and Ruppel; Mentel in Strasburg (before 1460), Pfister in Bamberg (1461), Sweynheim in Subiaco and Rome (1464), and Johann von Speyer in Venice (1469).
The blocks used to illustrate early printed books were small and the images were often generic. There is evidence that printers exchanged blocks, with the same images being used in different editions of books. For example, two hundred woodcuts were used in a 1476 edition of Aesop's Fables and appear again in an edition by a different printer in 1480. There are also examples where the same image has been used to represent different subjects. In early illustrated books the text and illustrations were printed in separate operations, possibly because the type and the wood blocks were of different heights, but later examples were printed in one impression.
The first use of copper engravings for illustration occurred in 1476. Early experiments in using engraving for illustrations were not successful because the two different methods of printing not only required two operations; they required different types of equipment. As a result registration problems occurred. The solution was to print the images on separate sheets of paper and bind them into the book or to print on thin paper and cut out and paste the images in place.
William Caxton learned the printing trade in Europe and set up his press in Westminster, England. 1476 Many early printing types were calligraphic - they imitated handwriting. Caxton used and was famed for his Black Letter type which imitated the writing of the Haarlem monks. Artistically, he was perhaps the finest printer of his day although, as a man of politics and letters, he was an amateur.
The new printing presses had spread like brushfire through Europe. By 1499 print-houses had become established in more than 2500 cities in Europe. Fifteen million books had been flung into a world where scholars would travel miles to visit a library stocked with twenty hand-written volumes. Scholars argue about the number. It could've been as few as eight million or as many as twenty four. But the output of new books had been staggering by any reasonable estimate. The people had suddenly come into possession of some thirty thousand new book titles.
While the Gutenberg press was much more efficient than manual copying, the Industrial Revolution and the introduction of the steam powered rotary press allowed thousands of copies of a page in a single day. Mass production of printed works flourished after the transition to rolled paper, as continuous feed allowed the presses to run at a much faster pace.
Gutenberg's invention did not make him rich, but it laid the foundation for the commercial mass production of books. The success of printing meant that books soon became cheaper, and ever wider parts of the population could afford them. More than ever before, it enabled people to follow debates and take part in discussions of matters that concerned them. As a consequence, the printed book also led to more stringent attempts at censorship. This was a sign that it was felt by those in authority to be dangerous and challenging to their position.
Gutenberg's Movable Metal Type
In the Far East, movable type and printing presses were known but did not replace printing from individually carved wooden blocks, from movable clay type, processes much more efficient than hand copying. The use of movable type in printing was invented in 1041 AD by Bi Sheng in China. Since there are thousands of Chinese characters, the benefit of the technique is not as obvious as in European languages.
It is not clear whether Gutenberg knew of these existing techniques or invented them independently, though the former is considered unlikely because of the substantial differences in technique.The print technology that produced the Gutenberg Bible marks the beginning of a cultural revolution unlike any that followed the development of print culture in Asia.
Gutenberg was a goldsmith, a worker in metals, and a lapidary, and his invention both in conception and execution shows the worker in metals. Gutenberg multiplied the separate types in metal molds. The types thus produced he built in such a way that they might be aligned like the manuscript he was copying.
His aim, technically and æsthetically so extremely difficult, was the mechanical reproduction of the characters used in the manuscripts, i.e. the hand lettered books of the time. The works printed by Gutenberg plainly prove that the types used in them were made by a casting process where the letter-patterns were cut on small steel rods termed patrices, and the dies thus made were impressed on some soft metal, such as copper, producing the matrices, which were cast in the mold in such a manner as to form the "face" and "body" of the type at one operation.
The printing type represents therefore a multiplicity of cast reproductions of the original die, or patrix. In addition to this technical process of type-setting, Gutenberg found himself confronted with a problem hardly less difficult, namely, the copying of the beautiful calligraphy found in the books of the fifteenth century, constantly bearing in mind that it must be possible to engrave and to cast the individual forms, since the types, when set, must be substantially replicas of the model.
The genius of Gutenberg found a brilliant solution to this problem in all its complicated details. Even in the earliest types he made (e.g. in the Calendar for 1448), it can recognize not only the splendid reproduction of the actual forms of the original handwriting, but also the extremely artistic remodeling of individual letters necessitated by technical requirements.
The type reproductions were the work of a calligraphic artist of the highest order. He applied the well-tested rules of the calligraphist's art to the casting of types, observing in particular the rudimentary principle of always leaving the same space between the vertical columns of the text. Consequently Gutenberg prepared two markedly different forms of each letter, the normal separate form, and the compound or linked form which, being joined closely to the type next to it, avoids gaps. It is significant that this unique kind of letter is to be found in only four types, and these four are associated with Gutenberg.
No typographer in the fifteenth century was able to follow the ideal of the original inventor, and consequently research attributes to Gutenberg types of this character, namely, the two Bible and the two Psalter types. Especially in the magnificent design and in the technical preparation of the Psalter of 1457 do we recognize the pure, ever-soaring inventive genius of Gutenberg.
Gutenberg's Printing Press
The spread of literacy and the development of universities meant that by the 15th century, despite an assembly line approach to the production of books, supply was no longer able to meet demand. As a result there was widespread interest in finding an alternative means of producing books.Before books could be mass produced, several developments were necessary.
A ready supply of suitable material that could be printed on was required. Manuscript books were written on vellum and this material was used for some early printed books, but vellum was expensive and not available in sufficient quantity for the mass production of books. The introduction of the technique of making paper and the subsequent development of a European papermaking industry was a necessary condition for the widespread adoption of print technology.
Although a number of people had previously attempted to make metal type or had experimented with individual woodcut letters, it was not until a technique was devised for producing metal type in large quantities that printing with moveable type became economically feasible. Gutenberg, who had initially trained as a goldsmith, was to devise a means of producing metal type in sufficient quantities at a reasonable cost. This involved the design of a type-face and the production of molds used for making the individual pieces of type, as well as the development of an alloy that was soft enough to cast yet hard enough to use for printing.
It was also necessary to develop suitable inks for printing with the new type. The water-based inks used for hand lettering and for block printing will not stick to metal type, therefore a viscous oil based ink was required.
Finally, a press was needed for transferring the image from type to paper. Precedents existed in the presses used for making wine, cheese and paper and one of Johannes Gutenberg's innovations was to adapt these presses for the printing process. An operator worked a lever to increase and decrease the pressure of the block against the paper. The invention of the printing press, in turn, set off a social revolution that is still in progress.
lacy-1
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Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Very good, but a link would have been sufficient.
Now as for your priest, I would like you to notice something - what your priest said and what that website said were two very different things. The website said that the Apostles knew nothing of any written Gospel because they did not write them and that the Gospels were actually later forgeries. Your priest said that sometimes people added to existing scriptures.
Now, lets look at this a little bit further. Is your priest right? Possibly, but not so much that it is a problem.
As you may realise, every single copy of the Bible that was made prior to the invention of the printing press, was done by hand. Occassionally, some of the copyists wrote notes in the margins, and later some would copy the notes into the text, and then later the addition would be discovered and then restored to its original form. This was not always perfect, but it wasn't bad. And remember what I said, most of the Bible was quoted by the early Church writers, so much so that the New Testament could be reconstructed from their writings (not a task I would want to try, but some might).
Even in more recent times, stuff got in and was removed - I understand that the King James Version of the Bible at one point had an addition to the Lord's Prayer that continues in the churches to this day. That addition was never part of the original text.
Something else did sometimes occur is that epistles that were sent originally to one church or another, were later sent to all the churches for their use - but the opening paragraph with the salutation was often removed - it was not necessary for the instructional element of the letter, and without a photocopier, no one wanted to copy more than they had to.
But nevertheless, the Gospels were written during the time of the Apostles by the authors named in Tradition, and we have the historical witnesses to prove it.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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How did we get from Mary and the saints to bible skeptics?
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